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Papering Levels in Different Generations
  • So it's been a few years since I've played on Haji, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me approximately what generations they expect to start seeing improvements in paper levels. I have a chart from several years back but I'm not sure if it's still valid so I figured it's worth double checking.

    For instance, if I remember correctly Perfect Foundation stallions will paper C - approximately what generation would you expect to start seeing B, A, and Star papers, and approximately what generation would you expect mares to paper Red, Blue, and Gold? I know that this will vary obviously based on the quality of a horse's sire/dam and each player will be more or less picky about culling the weaker elements of their lines, but I'm looking for different people's opinions on when to expect improvements in papering levels so feel free to let me know your own standards too! :)
    Thanked by 1ncsuwestern
  • A good foundation C papered stallion should be able to produce B papered sons. I always neuter 2nd gens that paper C immediately. Exceptional producer and exceptionally perfect stallions paper B and should be able to produce some A papered sons, although they will also produce colts that paper B.

    The most amazing experience I have ever had was a C papered stallion I put in a pasture with regular create mares. He gave me several A papered sons. That, however, is a rare, rare experience.

    In regular create lines I look to have A papered sons by the third generation, although I have sometimes kept a B papered 3rd gen that testes superior to his B papered sire until an A papered son appeared.

    Because mare quality is still hard to judge until they can be papered, things can get tougher even for colts after the 3rd generation. I generally find that it can take at least a couple more generations of A papered sons that test superior to their sires to get to Star, but stricter cullers than I am may have different results.

    Ordinary create mares paper Yellow fairly frequently, although some will paper Red. I require them all to produce Red papered daughters and for a Red--Red sequence that the AFPT of the daughters be noticeably higher than the dams. That means several tenths of a point on PT scores. I have a few Blue papered 2nd gen mares out of Exceptional crosses, but it's not something I insist on. All my Gold papered mares are probably long pedigreed, so I don't have a mark for the earliest appearance of Gold in my herd.

    No doubt some of the stricter breeders in the game can give you their answers. I play for fun, hoping for some improvement in each generation, but I'm not as serious about things as some others are.

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    Thanked by 1StrykerStables
  • Yes, perfect foundation stallions paper C. Exceptional stallions are Bs, which reflects about one generation of ability difference between them. Technically perfect foundation mares are Yellow, and Exceptional mares are Red, but because mare papering depends so much on foal quality most people don't keep foundation mares who paper yellow because it's so easy to get the red ones.

    I've bred in-house down to the 8th generation, so the following information is based on what I've personally seen, not necessarily any kind of pickiness.

    You can expect to see mostly superior B-papered colts from C-papered stallions, and can get A-papered colts from B-papered stallions without a whole lot of grief. So by the 3rd generation at most, you should have reached the A plane. Getting through the As usually takes me about three generations. Occasionally if you're really lucky you do get the perfect C->B->A->*Star progression, but if you're not playing with heavily boosted breeding stock it's a lot more realistic to expect *Stars in the 5th generation.

    Mares basically follow that progression, though they're more apt to go Red->Red->Blue->Blue->Blue->Gold. The girls always seem to lag behind the boys in the breeding department, though Ammit recently tightened up Strict Mare Advice so hopefully this will be less of an issue in the future.

    With stallions, comparison testing is the final answer on whether a colt is better than his stallion. If Comp Testing says he's better, he's significantly better, period, even if his papers are the same as his sire's. (I've had many streaks where I've had 3 generations of As, each one better than the last; sometimes it bugs me and a 1% breeding boost pushes the 3rd one over the line to *Star.)

    Mares, again, are harder. You do want to see a progression of papers, like I said above. You can also look at their AFPT, now conveniently located on their family tab. Mostly you want to see a .5 point increase from generation to generation, using 10 as a baseline for perfect foundations. So 10.5 at second gen, 11 at third, 11.4 at fourth, etc.

    That said some people are LOADS more draconian when it comes to personal standards and only keep the best of the best, so they have tighter curves.
  • I follow a more normal progression line like the other posters so far. I usually only use normal create lines in my barns if created by myself. I do buy outside breeding stock from time to time to add some fresh blood to my lines. However, this is what I generally expect to see now.

    Stallions:
    Foundation: C or B.
    2nd generation: if sire is C, then must be B and tested superior. If sire is B, then must be superior to sire. Papering A is a nice bonus, but not required.
    3rd gen: All must paper A and must test superior to sire.
    4th gen: All must be A or better and test superior to sire
    5th gen: This is where I start seeing some Stars. I am trying to tighten up things at this generation so all my boys are Star.
    6th gen and beyond: Must be Star and superior to sire.

    Mares:
    Foundation: Red. I don't keep yellow ones.
    2nd gen: Red. A few have surprised me by papering blue.
    3rd gen: Red, although more and more of my girls are papering blue. If that trend continues, then blue will become the default standard.
    4th gen: Must be blue.

    Now for golds..... I have not had any paper gold yet. Most of my mares are 4th gen or lower. So it's still a work in progress.

    Thanked by 1StrykerStables
  • I've narrowed my own heard down to B and A papered foundation stallions, because it's just my personal preference. I expect superior A papered boys for 2nd generation, with the colts from B papered sires getting some more leniency - comping AGA an A papered foundation. For 3rd generation I expect Star colts from all/mostlyrics A papered grandsires, and superior A colts from those with all/mostly B papered grandsires. I would expect to see Star colts from those B foundations by 4th generation. So I expect A-A-Star, or B-A-A-Star.

    I'm one of those crazies who is super strict on my mares, too. Mainly because I've seen over and over again, lines stalling out and frustrations over a plateau around 4ths generation. It is possible to have blue papered 2nd generation mares from even B papered foundations. It's less common from B papered foundations, but is possible, and I am all for quality, over quantity. So I expect Blue papered mares at 2nd Gen. If a mare with a B papered sire papers red, I'm more likely to offer her for sale or brood and alter any foals of hers that I have kept. While if a mare with an A papered sire papers red, her and any foals she has produced will be altered and tossed in the show barn. In the 3rd generation, I will expect Blue papers for mares with B papered grandsires, and alter any red mares, and her foals. For those mares from A papered grandsires, I expect them to keep up with the colts of 3rd generation, and paper gold. Again, I am strictly concerned about quality over quantity, and have produced to date ONE gold papered 3rd generation mare. The rest have been altered, along with their foals. Now those kind of guidelines are probably crazy to some, some seasons they seem crazy to me even, but I figure if I know I can produce Star colts by 3rd generation, the mares of the exact same lines can also be Gold. And if I'm going to snip anything less than a Star for that generation, then I'll snip anything less than a Gold as well.

    Just my thoughts, and how I breed personally, but I can always appreciate and admire how others breed as well. Biggest concern should be if you yourself are satisfied with your herd, and the direction it is going. Breed what makes you happy :D
    Go boldly, where no App has gone before!
  • Thanks so much everyone for your input; I really find it helpful to hear how others think about their line progressions through the generations, and how others think about quality and their expectations. I expect that I'll have to work out what I'm happy with as I go, but it's really useful to hear some of your guys' standards as it helps give me an idea of what's possible and what kind of paper levels are the most likely.

    I like to focus on quality but on the other hand I have a feeling I'd get pretty frustrated if I made my quality standards too high to the point where almost everything was getting altered, even if that made for better quality overall haha. Just gotta find the right balance between keeping quality progressing and keeping me enjoying it!

    Thanks again everyone, and if anyone wants to pipe up with their own standards and thoughts I'm always happy to hear more!

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