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Getting that *Star or *Gold papered offspring
  • I've been playing this game awhile, and haven't had any luck with reaching the *Star and *Gold papers with my own horses. I have a few with horses bred outside my stables, but want to get there with my own stock. I started to aggressively spay & geld any offspring who didn't paper better than their sire or dam. I've got some very nice 2nd and exceptional 3rd gens because of it, but my 4th gens aren't papering any better. At this point, I'm questioning if I set the bar too high and need to keep my 4th gens intact if they paper the same but PT better than their sire or dam to help me reach the next paper level?
    Twin up with the perfect partner.
  • I usually expect *Gold and *Star at 5th gen. I will keep 4th gen A colts intact as long as they test superior to sire. My fillies must paper Blue or occasionally *Gold at 4th gen.
    Bluegrass Server: HayesStable - 221755
    Forest Server: AHayesHorses - 4344
    Mesa Server: AshBrookeFarm - 92
    Thanked by 1TwinRiverStud
  • Could you give us some details on what you're starting with, foundation wise? What paper levels are you expecting when? Are you using pastures? Lab? Live cover? Links are always helpful, too :)
    Go boldly, where no App has gone before!
    Thanked by 1TwinRiverStud
  • A horse's PT score has very little to do with its breeding ability. You can look at the horse's offspring, however, and in that case a good measure for progress from one generation is at least half a point, on average... so if your 2nd gen mare has a 10.5 average foal PT score, you'd want any mares she produces to have foals whose AFPT is at least 11. Keep in mind that the best way to get a good average is to have three or more foals because there's something like 1.5 points of variability that can be produced. (For example, basic perfect foundations produce between 8.9 and 10.4.)

    There's also a degree of overlap between paper colors/letters, which comes out pretty obviously if you use Comparison Testing (which for colts you should; it'll tell you absolutely who's better than who, and if you want to get to the *Stars, you should always look for colts that test superior to their sires, regardless of the paper level.) There's enough of an overlap that you can have 3 generations of As in which each subsequent generation tests better than his sire, because the first A is 1% over being a B, the 3rd one is 1% short of being a *Star, with one smack dab in between.

    Getting absolute increases across generations (C->B->A->*Star or Yellow->Red->Blue->*Gold) IS possible, but without paying for boosts it's the exception and not the rule. It's pretty safe to expect two generations of a gap between color changes, so two reds, two blues, then *Gold. And, like HayesStable up there, I usually expect to start seeing *Gold and *Stars at about 5th generation, but I start primarily with Exceptional Producing foundations; if I was using basic foundations it would be more like 6th generation to compensate.

    That's probably about as clear as mud...
    Thanked by 1TwinRiverStud
  • What about in regards to regular creates like a C stud breeding an A colt or a yellow mare throwing a blue filly (from found to 2g)?
    I have a big barn and I realized I hadn't been seeing the improvement I wanted and had been getting A LOT of spays and gelds.
    What is the best way to test their ability?
    How can one friend a good 2g example for a stud, or can you assume an A colt from a B stud is 'superior'?

    Edit: this colt from a PF/ExPro: http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=5392988
    Colt from RS ExPro cross: http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=4755834
    Stud from regular create & ExPro: http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=3078742
    Post edited by bravo25 at 2017-09-08 21:39:12
  • Thanks for the info everyone. LOL, that was so much clearer than mud Stone Silo. My Foundations are a mix of unboosted ExPro, ExPer, Rank 5, and Rank Specials that I use for pasture breeding. I try to keep ability level between stud and mare close so I get the best chance for superior intact offspring. I think I'm on the right track with my colts because only the boys who comparison test superior to their sire make it to my breeding stock. However, I'm spaying my 4th gen fillies that paper the same as their dam. My thinking was that for fillies to stay intact they had to paper superior. Here's an example of 2 girls I spayed, but maybe should have kept intact?

    Anything Shadow
    image
    http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=5672904

    Sierra Maiden
    image
    http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=5672903
    Post edited by TwinRiverStud at 2017-09-09 02:11:55
    Twin up with the perfect partner.
  • I think this is the first breeding season with mares that were graded via the new Strict Mare Testing - if you're using that, I'd say you may have been a bit hasty spaying.

    Let me give you an example:

    http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=2503037 is a foundation Exceptional Producer. Her AFPT (after 12 foals) is 10.3

    http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=2778584 is a 2nd gen mare out of the above foundation. She's also red papered, but after 7 foals has an AFPT of 10.7

    http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=3105875 is a 3rd gen mare out of the above 2nd gen. She's blue papered, with an AFPT of 11.09 after 8 foals.

    http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=3621955 is a 4th gen mare out of the above 3rd gen. She's also blue papered, and her AFPT jumps up to 11.79 with 7 foals on the ground.

    http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=4264054 is a 5th gen gold out of the above 4th and after 4 foals, her AFPT is 12.33

    So there's a progression across their paper levels, but there's also a definite increase in the show ability of their foals from one generation to the next.
    Thanked by 1TwinRiverStud
  • Starting with exceptionals i expect star and gold by 5th generation, very occasionally you will get a star or gold at 4th gen but they are the exception. I always had minimum of star set at 4th gen but recently changed it as i didn't have enough to usefully breed.

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