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StarBarKRanch · Oct 28, 2018 9:33 AM

New player so bear with me: I understand that ultimately I can tackle breeding any which way I please and geld/spay all the things if I so desire... That understood, if my goal for now is to breed for high performance, and using only the basic tools available (performance test, breeding advice, etc) is it worthwhile to geld/spay ANYTHING that does not surpass sire and dam in performance rating? Or is it equally worthwhile to keep anything intact that's within a few points with the understanding that it would potentially produce better down the line?

I guess the question boils down to -- how much of a numbers game is it with improving performance? Or is there a lot of variation?

And one more question -- I understand that many players strive for even pedigrees. How offensive is it to a public stallion owner to a breed, let's say, a second gen mare to a foundation stallion, if I don't personally mind an uneven pedigree in my own program? Is this considered a faux pas for the sake of the stallion owner?

Bandit1119 · Oct 28, 2018 9:44 AM

Breeding and performance are separate.

Papers have no influence on how well of a shower a horse is and Pt scores have no bearing on how good of a breeder a horse is. (Although you can tell a sire or dams quality by comparing the average PT scores of all their foals but you need enough foals to actually be able to get an average, inconsistency lowers the PT scores too)

It’s best to have a wide range of PT scores. The low scores tend to stay in each level long enough to earn points as they age up and cover for the high PTscore horses.

Meanwhile the high PT scores tend to rocket up the levels and unless they’re lucky they may not collect many points as they age up until they reach the bigger classes. Then they make up for it by earning more points per show

StarBarKRanch · Oct 28, 2018 9:47 AM

Okay... let me make sure I'm interpreting this correctly. I know breeding and performance are separate abilities, but it IS possible to breed for performance, correct? (Otherwise it would just be a randomly-assigned score?)

Bandit1119 · Oct 28, 2018 9:52 AM

As for even generations the personal preferences have been shifting over the last few years so that it’s becoming more acceptable for “bootstrapping” breeding (breeding a lined star stud to foundations then without any testing continuing to breed the fillies back to their star stud until you have gold papers to increase the mares quality quicker than even generation breeding)

Personally I breed even generations and track them all the way back to foundations. I have a mare that was 10 years old before she had company in her generations barn and this year as a 13year old was the first year she was bred. I did try to cross some of her eggs as a 9year old with some outside lined horses but didn’t get any intacts and then got busy over the summer so she just sat showing instead. So I don’t really have any personal experience breeding uneven (other than the odd oopsie breeding mixing the wrong Gens in the same pasture)

StarBarKRanch · Oct 28, 2018 9:55 AM

Here are some examples of what I decided to geld myself and would love some feedback on this...

http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=7236923 Did not surpass sire OR dam performance score, so I snipped it

http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=7236922 Did improve on dam's performance but not sire's, so also got snipped

These geldings did both pass Breeding Advice initially.

Bandit1119 · Oct 28, 2018 9:58 AM

It is possible to breed for increased performance but since most of those numbers are hidden you only have the PT score to tell you right away if the quality is increasing (and I believe there’s other things that affect PT scores) then the only way to see if your performance is increasing is to wait until the horse levels off (roughly when their age reaches their PT score) to see if they reached a higher show level.

Although if you continue to breed for better breeding horses you will also most likely get better performance horses.

Also spayed mares and geldings get training boosts so they have a leg up in the showing department compared to mares and stallions

Stone Silo Farm · Oct 28, 2018 9:59 AM

You can breed for performance, absolutely. You do that by rigorously making sure that each generation is an improvement over the last, but there are two measurements of that.

When you're talking about breeding animals you cannot use their performance testing scores as a measurement. Breeding ability (paper levels) and showing ability (PT scores) are two completely independent numbers on each horse. You want breeding animals of subsequent generations to be better than their sires/dams. For colts that's easy; comparison testing will tell you outright if a colt is better than his sire or not. For mares it's harder. You can use testing and that weeds out the bottom tier; you can to some degree use papering (you wouldn't want to breed to yellow-papered mares with red-papered dams) but really what you end up having to do is use what's called the AFPT: their average foal performance test score. Once they have 3-4 foals on the ground (enough to allow for an outlier really good/bad roll of the showing dice) you can compare them to their dams and see if that number is better than the dam's AFPT.

PT scores in lined horses are determined by the breeding ability of their parents. *Star stallions produce foals with way higher PT scores than C-papered stallions do. However, this number is independent of the breeding score.

When the game makes a foal it basically rolls invisible dice based on sire+dam breeding scores twice, once for breeding and once for showing, so the same stallion + mare can give you one foal that is a fantastic breeder but a relatively poor shower, AND a foal that is a fantastic shower but a relatively poor breeder (in fact most foals end up in this category), AND a foal that is great at both, AND a foal that is relatively not very good at either one.

StarBarKRanch · Oct 28, 2018 10:02 AM

Awesome, thank you both for expanding this!

Okay -- so right now the best bet for me is to use the comparison testing, if I'm on a limited budget? (Papering is through an upgrade, correct?)

Another option is just continue to geld/spay everything, make more $$ and figure out what I'm doing before I breed too much more haha. Although I guess breeding a bunch of mistakes is also how I'd learn!!

Bandit1119 · Oct 28, 2018 10:04 AM

The second gelding was inconsistent which will lower the PT score by a bit so he could have had the same or better score as his sire.

But I personally don’t even look at PT when culling unless I’m looking for a tie breaker between 2 comparatively similar half brothers. (although I’m thinking of starting to trim my 2nd Gen mares by AFPT to make room in the pastures for new mares)

Bandit1119 · Oct 28, 2018 10:14 AM

I believe that when your starting out you should breed whatever to whatever until you figure out your direction you’d like to go in.

Personally I’d try to set aside the 30iv’s needed to get a basic upgrade for the year (or the new member $1.99 option for a 3month basic upgrade, 10 acre pasture, and 25k if that is still available)

If your barn is under 20,000 points you can create young show horses with points and sell them off over create price or sell/auction your pasture foals for a profit. 1000hbs to paper your foals is cheaper than the 8,000 to comparison test. Although you can get 2-3 generations of superior to sire colts with the same paper level so there is still wiggle room inside of papering.

Stone Silo Farm · Oct 28, 2018 10:15 AM

Honestly, at this point spaying/gelding everything and just using it for show stock is NOT a bad idea at all. You may not have a lot of game money now but that will change over time. All those points do add up over time.

StarBarKRanch · Oct 28, 2018 10:22 AM

Well, since I can't currently afford to comparison test anything anyway.... might as well snip it all haha!

StarBarKRanch · Oct 28, 2018 10:24 AM

@Bandit1119, didn't see your most recent post -- I think I'll give it a few weeks and if I'm still happily playing (which I highly suspect I will be!) I'm sure I'll be upgrading pretty soon...

bravo25 · Oct 28, 2018 11:14 AM

Also, as a perhaps helpful tidbit ive picked up myself..

When starting with foundation horses, ive had better luck with perfect foundations, exceptional and exceptionally producing/perfect, top notch creations than I have with others (like normal create foundations ie splash app, bay dun, true breeding brown, etc). It is NOT to say one should be utilized more than the other, it does come down to color/style preferences. However, if youre aiming for superior & intact thats your best bet. I do have a handful of exceptional create mares or intact second gen exceptional create crosses if youd like a few no charge (i do breed horses not drafts, however).

If you need show stock also send me a message, ive got a few id be happy to donate. Just dont forget to train & show weekly ! :)

StarBarKRanch · Oct 29, 2018 7:01 AM

Another question -- foundation stallion, Exceptional Producer, passed BA and PT Inconsistent. Would you still breed? (Would by altering any inconsistent offspring...)

FLS Equine Cente · Oct 29, 2018 7:19 AM

Inconsistent does not effect breeding just showing. But I have plenty of inconsistent show horses that still do well.

StarBarKRanch · Oct 29, 2018 7:25 AM

Ok -- we had been talking last night in chat about altering inconsistent foals as they weren't necessarily an improvement on the overall line, but I guess as a foundation there's nothing to improve on, so he can stay. Thanks!

SandyCreekAcres · Oct 29, 2018 7:43 AM

Any Exceptional Producer stallion will paper B, the equivalent of an acceptable 2nd generation stallion, so his breeding ability is not in doubt, although, since he is likely to sire a fair number of inconsistent foals, his average foal PT may be lower than that of a consistent stallion. (Being inconsistent lowers the PT score of a horse.)

It takes 1 Gene Modification Token to make a horse consistent, which is fairly cheap in real life money ($5) and fairly expensive in game money (20 Investment Vouchers at 12,500 hbs each).

If he had a color or pattern I wanted to breed for, I would probably breed him, but I'm not particularly strict about keeping my breeding stock consistent.

Other players are very strict about not breeding inconsistent stock.

StarBarKRanch · Oct 29, 2018 7:58 AM

Thanks, SandyCreek! At this stage of the learning game, every color is a color I want to breed for, so he can keep the jewels for now :)

Bandit1119 · Oct 29, 2018 9:13 AM

Personally I do cull most of my inconsistent breeding horses (by cull I just mean move to the show herd lol)

BUT I am breeding 900+ foals a year now so I need to keep quite a few restrictions to reduce the # of intact foals I have coming up or I wouldn’t be able to keep up with holding barns lol

Breeding quality and performance quality aren’t directly connected although inconsistency lowers the PT score so will reduce a horses AFPT making them look like they aren’t as good quality as they are.

I don’t feel that inconsistency is as much of an issue with the current show system as it was with the previous system so I don’t completely remove any inconsistency from my herd anymore.

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