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bravo25 · Jan 22, 2019 8:13 PM

So i randomly created this mare:
https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=7733474

Shes a liver red roan, and I adore her coat. However, Im a little confused about the genetics. Id like to start a small breeding and collection of a these guys as show ponies, but what exactly will make them a liver red?

LEAcres · Jan 22, 2019 8:35 PM

Hom sty chestnut with DP

SandyCreekAcres · Jan 22, 2019 8:37 PM

Well, starting out with ee aa (chestnut) and Kitr for the roan, then add homozygous Ssty with at least 1 DP, or SSsty and DPDP.

So if both parents are homozygous Ssty and both have at least heterozygous DP and heterozygous Kitr, you should have a good start for developing a line. That horse has a minimal roan expression, which is something that is completely variable and does not, I think, rely on White Factor.

I did a search for roan horses in my stable, and just looking at the first page shows that roan is not linked to White Factor.

https://www.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?runsearch=1&status=any&ageg=&agel=&agee=&erag=&eral=&erae=&heightg=&heightl=&heighte=&boneg=&bonel=&bonee=&f_basic=none&f_adv=none&f_limit=25&stallion=1&mare=1&gelding=1&spayedmare=1&bty=1&lined=lined&foundation=1&name=&name_lm=like&color=&color_lm=like&owner=137592&owner_lm=like&breeder=&breeder_lm=like&sire=&sire_lm=like&dam=&dam_lm=like&barn=&barn_lm=like&pasture=&past_lm=like&tattoo=roan&tat_lm=like&tat_and=and&club=&bc_lm=like&bc_and=and&e1=&e2=&a1=&a4=&a2=&a3=&f1=&f2=&p1=&p2=&s1=&s2=&s3=&c1=&c2=&c3=&d1=&d3=&d2=&g1=&g2=&ch1=&ch2=&z1=&z2=&sa2=&sa1=&mu2=&mu1=&chn2=&chn1=&kit1=&kit2=&kit3=&kit4=&kit5=&kit6=&kit10=&kit11=&kit12=&kit7=&kit8=&kit9=&sp1=&sp2=&sp3=&spM=&pax31=&pax32=&rb1=&rb2=&o1=&o2=&l1=&l2=&ice1=&icei=&ice2=&ice3=&ice4=&ice5=&ice6=&ice7=&ice8=&ice9=&ice10=&ice11=&ice12=&ice13=&ice14=&ice15=&nexn=&nexx=&nexr=&nexg=&nexb=&nexw=&rainr=&rainwt=&rainpl=&raint=&rainna=&brindle1=1&brindle2=1&wf1=1&wf2=1&wf3=1&wf4=1&wf5=1&wf6=1

bravo25 · Jan 22, 2019 8:41 PM

Okay, so DP sounds like the key to making it the liver part, with the hom sty and chestnut furthers the color.
Meaning...my mare is at least het for DP?

ChateauAlbere · Jan 23, 2019 4:58 AM

Liver requires three darkening genes - some combination of sty/S+ and DP. Since she is Liver, and is hom sty, she is at least het DP. Since she is not phenotypically black live (see the DP ninja chart in the FAQ and linked below), she is only het DP.

https://imgur.com/Uu4Owfm

MasterStablesMS · Jan 24, 2019 2:07 AM

Liver can be hard to grasp, but that cheat sheet helps enormously! To be a liver a horse always needs to have 3 'darkening' genes, of which at least 1 copy of DP.
I have searched a few of my horses to make it even more clear:
this is a normal stysty chestnut:

MSH Potential160Pro xDP

This is a single sty chestnut, but as you can see she looks exactly the same as the girl above; thus I know she needs to have 1 copy of DP to look that way.

MSH Potential145Pro DP

Similar with this:
This is a normal non-sty chestnut horse:

MSR Potential104Pro

These are two horses who do not have any Sty genes but look quite a bit darker than the girl above:

MS Potential473Pro DP

MS Potential394Pro DP

Especially if we compare them with a regular chestnut with 1 sty gene:

zMS ExShow158

Breeding those girls gave me an extra confirmation:
The top girl of those 2 that have DP produced this foal:

MS2 TwasALitNight hDP
A liver chestnut. However, as we see in her color genetics she only has 1 sty gene (S+ in this case). So as we learned from the cheat sheet, to be a liver 3 darkening genes are needed to become liver. As this girl only has 1 sty darkening gene (S+), to be a liver she has to have 2 copies of DP, thus being homozygous for DP. This gave me an extra confirmation that her mom is a DP carrier as well.

DP ofcourse shows best if we compare a stysty chestnut with a stysty chestnut with 1 copy of DP:
This is the regular chestnut, no DP:

MS Potential445Pro xDP

this is with 1 copy of DP:

MS2 Walk Like Usain DP

And this is a homo DP, or what is called a 'black' chestnut:

MS2 Wobbly Walk DP

Some more examples:

This girl is a homo DP:

MS3 Crammed4TheMajesty DP
Why? She has 1 sty gene but is called (and looks like) a liver chestnut. As said above, 3 darkening genes are needed. Thus she needs to have 2 copies of DP in order to 'be' the liver she is.

These are a few other cool examples:
Both being homo DP, but as they are flaxen chestnuts (ff) their manes are colored different, but also they seem a bit more darker than the normal 'black' chestnut I posted above.

MS3 TG For Silver SF hDP

MS3 RedRisingFire hDP
This also has to do with the Pangere (the mealy spots on the muzzle and 'armpits' of the horse), these two girls do not have them so they seem solid black, however these three have them:

MS3 Bluemina hDPi8 LUVV

MS2 Ezmeralde hDP

MS3 Snowfirefran hDP

Finally, bringing in other genes can also affect the color.
This is girl is a homo DP with 1 sty gene (she is homo because she has 1 sty but is called liver, as we know liver needs at least 3 darkening genes so that means she has to be homo DP).

MS2 SnakesForDinner hDP
However, she also has a copy of PRL. PRL is a dillution gene, thus 'lightening' the coat.
Like the pangere, or the flaxen, other genes can influence how the horse looks. However, they are still all livers!

I hope these examples give you a better image of how you can spot DP!
It took me quite some time to fnid it out as well, and I am still mistaken sometimes.
However, breeding your mare that you think has DP to a homo DP stud (for example a freaky friday) can give you a lot of insights; if you get a black chestnut out of that (or a 1sty but named liver foal) you know you mare has DP as well.

Finally, did you know DP also affects bays and palominos?
Palominos are called chocolate palomino instead of liver, but it works the same as the chestnuts above.
The bays are another story however, they are not called liver or anything, you just have to train your eye to spot it! I do not have time to address that right now, but let me know if you'd like me to.

SandyCreekAcres · Jan 24, 2019 4:41 AM

That is an excellent description and demonstration, Master StablesMS!

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