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HorseAngel · Jul 24, 2019 5:42 PM

Hey, I have an appaloosa question, it's about one of my own appies and I wanted to know if she would be a good appa breeder for things like blanket size and markings & if I could mybe use her to breed a appy with more Leopard Spotting? She only has one copy of PATN1 & is het for Llp I think. She should at least give foals with large white markings with having the Splash&Frame genes right? Also would anyone know which pattern gene would make the best markings/pattern when mixed with an Appaloosa? Splash or Frame or.....what? Is the "White Spotting" on her a gene? Someone in a chat said I would get a better answer on here instead, any help would be great!! https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=8897700

GildedFire · Jul 24, 2019 5:46 PM

Her white Spotted is White 2 ( from daddy).

Splash mixes really well with Appaloosa. Per my example below.

https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=7620120

HorseAngel · Jul 24, 2019 5:50 PM

Wow, he is really nice! I guess Splash makes a good looking Appaloosa, what about Frame or any others?

HorseAngel · Jul 24, 2019 5:51 PM

Could I still use her to breed/make a Leopard foal out of her?

GildedFire · Jul 24, 2019 5:53 PM

She’s a second gen and already bred for this season. But next season you can.

Nikkel666 · Jul 24, 2019 6:08 PM

My personal favorite appy mixes are KitM and PATN1 like this guy

TF2 Dark Warrior

Big loud leopard spots like this guy

TFOR1 Dark Cherry

leopard spots mixed with W2 ( I think it kind of makes them sparkle lol)

TFR1 Blue Tower

TF1 Phantom

Oh! And Sabino2 :)

TFR1 Remington

HorseAngel · Jul 24, 2019 6:09 PM

I meant is getting a Leopard out of her even a possiblity with her?

Humboldt · Jul 24, 2019 6:12 PM

Yes it is. A leopard needs one copy of Lp and 2 copies of PATN1.

HorseAngel · Jul 24, 2019 6:14 PM

Those are great appies and are what I was trying for! How do you breed Leopards like that? So are the kit and white spotting work the best for mixing appaloosas with? I like them a lot!

HorseAngel · Jul 24, 2019 6:18 PM

My mare only has one copy of the PATN1 but has one of the Llp, would that still work to breed a Leopard with her? Or would she be a good one for breeding Appaloosas more in general?

Silverstar · Jul 24, 2019 6:26 PM

I’m not much good at Appaloosa genes, so I have no comment. Different note it isn’t wise to breed horses with frame together, since you have a chance of a lethal foal. I learned that lesson the hard way, when I had a few dead foals on the game.

HorseAngel · Jul 24, 2019 6:40 PM

Oh, that's not good. Sorry about your foals. Ok so maybe breeding appaloosas with frame is not a great idea, I was just wondering how they would pattern with differnt genes. I think I like Splash more anyway and was really wanting to see if I could start breeding for more Leopard spotting!

Taliesin · Jul 24, 2019 8:41 PM

Ok, it depends on what exactly you mean by 'Leopard'
If you want full body white with solid spots all throughout, either bold big spots like this:

LEO1 SH Tambre
or lacy flecks like this:

LEO1 Trackker

you want no other white genes at all. Just one copy of app and two of PATN1. If that's your goal, your mare wouldn't be the best for it because she has multiple other white patterning genes.

However if you want mixed patterns, like patches of white with no spots in them:

NA1 SH Pale Princess

LEO2 Gotta Boom

SH Easy A

LEO3 Wild Dancer

or other kinds of spotting along with the appy spots:

CFN Little Luck 112C

SH Perfect Dream

xKP2 PRL2 Secret King

or other spotting on the appy spots:

LEO2 8790078

or some combination of those things:

KP1 8746148

SH Presto

then you do want other white genes, and your mare could be really good for that, depending on what exactly you want. Which look you want will decide which genes you want to breed in.

Taliesin · Jul 24, 2019 8:44 PM

Also breeding horses with frame isn't a bad idea by any means, you just don't want to breed two horses who both have frame together, because the foal will have a 25% chance of being lethal.

BellaPenn · Jul 24, 2019 10:21 PM

What about if we want to remove the appy gene from the horse? Can it be done? I have a liver chestnut appy foal and I would like to make it just liver chestnut if I can.
If i am not making any sense here I am doped up on my medication and in bed. But too stubborn to go.lol

Taliesin · Jul 25, 2019 2:39 AM

If the parent the appy gene came from is heterozygous, then yes. In the GMT lab you can make a lined horse inherit the other allele instead for 1 token

HorseAngel · Jul 26, 2019 8:27 AM

I wanted the bolder spots for a leopard and was thinking about breeding with other white genes too but not sure what pattern I like more. I started breeding Appaloosas when I joined a month ago and even started breeding my own line of blue roan appies because I really liked there color but now wanted to try breeding more of some other Appy patterns too so I wanted to learn how to breed one with the leopard spots in the bigger bold style! So any help with that would be good as well! Oh and what is KitM? Thank you to everyone who has helped out so far!

HorseAngel · Jul 26, 2019 8:38 AM

So how do you or what do you need to be able to breed for the bolder kind of leopard spotting then?

Nikkel666 · Jul 26, 2019 8:50 AM

KitM is a white spotting gene that you have to buy to put on a foundation. It’s not a licensed gene though, so you can purchase horses that have it. As for the bold leopard spots vs. the Lacey leopard spots, I think it’s a predetermined genetic thing. I did a lot of work on this girl and rerolled her a bunch of times, changed the white factor etc. to try to make the spots bolder and she still has Lacey spots lol

TF1 Bronc Buster

LakeOndowaFarm · Jul 26, 2019 11:05 AM

The best way to get big spots on your foals is to breed parents with big spots. The spot size is genetic, but influenced by a number of different genes, some of them hidden. I believe that sooty and DP can increase spot size somewhat, though.

Taliesin · Jul 26, 2019 12:46 PM

Ammit, purveyor of fine genes and devourer of souls, has confirmed that you can breed for spot size, but not how exactly it's inherited or what affects it. So your best bet if you want big spots is to find parents with big spots, like LOF said.
And these are horses that have KitM and no other white spotting:

KAKPu Molly Opal

KP2 Papagayo

Have you figured out how to search for horses with particular genes and gene combinations yet? The best way to figure out what you want is to search different gene combos and look at other people's horses and see what you like!

HorseAngel · Jul 26, 2019 6:39 PM

I haven't really learned how to use the search that way, I just search for coat colors!:) Would you be able to search something like "Leopard Appaloosas" and see what comes up?

HorseAngel · Jul 26, 2019 6:45 PM

Oh and would this mare work better to try and breed a Leopard with? She is homo for Llp and has one copy of PATN1 but she has and all most full white blanket, so if I found a stallion with the big spots for her would that do it or no? https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=8843618

HorseAngel · Jul 26, 2019 6:48 PM

And I really like the KitM I think, on a side note would anyone know/have any studs up with the KitM or have a mare or stallion with it for sale somewhere?

Taliesin · Jul 26, 2019 9:44 PM

No, searching 'Leopard Appaloosas' won't get you anywhere, since that's not the name the game gives them. So when you open up the search, you're on the 'Key Filters' tab. The other two tabs are 'Base Colors' and 'Patterns' and if you click over to those, it's all genes. They're arranged by loci, and each possible gene at each locus is listed and has it's own drop down menu where you can choose 'Default', 'Must Have' or 'Must Not Have'. There are some genes that are not searchable, which sadly includes the ECA3P genes, which is where PATN1 is, so you can't search that, but you could search appaloosa and KitM, for instance, or appaloosa and sabino2, or whatever combinations you want to see. I did a few searches for you using KitM, so you can check it out and see what I did and figure it out!
This one is all the stallions and mares with KitM up for breeding in the game: Link!
To do that, I clicked the 'For Breeding' button, deselected spayed mares and geldings, and went over to the patterns tab and scrolled down on the Kit menu on the top left until I got to KitM. I selected 'Must Have' on it's drop down menu.

Then I switched from 'For Breeding' to 'For Sale', and got you a list of all the mares and stallions up for public sale: Link!

If you go to the patterns tab and add a must have on Lp, you can see the ones that have both app and KitM.
Also, here's my KitM boy, who is up for public breeding for a short time

KP1 Jack the Pumpkin King

Ok, now about your mare - she's hom appy, that's why she has no spots in her blanket. In order to be a leopard, a horse must have JUST ONE copy of app and two of PATN (either PATN1 or PATN2, which is hidden). This is one reason leopard is so challenging to breed for. Your best bet to get leopards from her would be to breed her to a stallion who has hom PATN and no app. Jack, my KitM boy up there, actually fits that requirement as well. He's the only one of my foundation stallions that does, to my knowledge. Or you can breed her to a leopard and you'll have a 50-50 chance of the foal inheriting his daddy's Lp and being mostly white, but then that foal would grow up to throw leopards (if it got it's mom's PATN1 anyway), so that wouldn't be a loss.
Allow me to offer Ozy as an option there

LEO1 Ozymandias

Ok, I have to go to bed, hopefully this makes sense!

Wolvevenfrost · Jul 27, 2019 4:20 AM

@HorseAngel if you'd like I'll show you all my Leopard horses. I manually tattoo them all so I know there all Leopard's. I also have a ton of Appies too.

Taliesin · Jul 27, 2019 4:37 AM

@Wolveven, Fun Fact: if you put 'Leopard' in the tattoo field it brings up all the ones you and I have tattooed. Apparently nobody else has a tattoo with that in it! You get a lot more if you put 'PATN'

HorseAngel · Jul 27, 2019 12:36 PM

Wow I didn't know there was that much more you could use the search for, that's amazing! Yes that does make sense, a lot actually! Thanks so much for all your help! @Wolveven, that would be great if you can! Thank you too!

HorseAngel · Jul 27, 2019 1:16 PM

I also really like your KitM stallion too but I don't have the money right now to breed to him and breeding closes Sunday too. Would he be up for stud next season too?

HorseAngel · Jul 27, 2019 1:35 PM

I breeded her to your Ozy and got a beautiful filly! My mare still gave both her copies of Llp to the filly though and has just one of PATN1 also. I could still use her to breed(when 4 years) if I your Jack or too another stallion with no Llp and two PATN1, right? https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=8937474

HorseAngel · Jul 27, 2019 1:36 PM

I missed the word use, if I use your stallion Jack, sorry:)

Taliesin · Jul 27, 2019 6:18 PM

You're welcome, glad I can help! Next season he won't be at stud, but I'll get you set up to breed a couple mares to him for free. I'd prefer only foundation mares be bred to him though, not second gens.
Yes, you'll have a decent chance of leopard if you breed that filly to a stallion with no Lp and 2 PATN. Remember that a horse gets one of the genes from each parent, so your filly didn't get both of her mom's Lp's, she got one from her mom and one from Ozy.

Ok, for your next lesson in Leopards 101, PATN2! PATN2 works similarly to PATN1 for making leopards and is in the same spot, but it's a hidden gene, which means it does not show up in the horse's genome with testing. If a horse has PATN2, it will say + instead. So if it says a horse is ECA3PPATN1 and ECA3P+, that + could actually be a plus or it could be a hidden PATN2, and in the latter case the horse would probably be leopard. Jack is like that. You can guess if a horse is PATN2 based on looks, or you can tell for sure by checking it out in the GMT Lab if you have a token and the horse doesn't have any babies yet. That's how I know Jack is PATN1 PATN2 even though he's not app so it doesn't show up on his test results at all. If you can't use the lab, you kinda have to guess. I think you also need a basic upgrade to use the lab, I'm not sure on that. Generally the more of the body the white covers, the more likely the + is PATN2, but other genes can really throw this off. Rare Gem, for instance, I have no idea. She's got so many other white genes that I'm not even gonna try to guess.
Gold of the Nile definitely looks like a PATN1 + to me, which means West Wind must be too. I would have guessed she was PATN2, with how big her blanket is, but her foal inherited that gene, whatever it is, and has a little blanket, so idk. Obviously it's not an exact science lol, and horses with the same genes can show a wide variety.

Taliesin · Jul 27, 2019 6:19 PM

Also, the way the genes are listed on the testing results, the first one of the pair is the one they got from their sire, and the second is the one they got from their dam

Wolvevenfrost · Jul 28, 2019 3:25 AM

All My Leopards

https://www.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?runsearch=1&status=any&ageg=&agel=&agee=&erag=&eral=&erae=&heightg=&heightl=&heighte=&boneg=&bonel=&bonee=&f_basic=none&f_adv=none&f_limit=25&stallion=1&mare=1&gelding=1&spayedmare=1&bty=1&lined=lined&foundation=1&name=&name_lm=like&color=&color_lm=like&owner=&owner_lm=like&breeder=&breeder_lm=like&sire=&sire_lm=like&dam=&dam_lm=like&barn=&barn_lm=like&pasture=&past_lm=like&tattoo=Leopard+&tat_lm=like&tat_and=and&club=&bc_lm=like&bc_and=and&e1=&e2=&a1=&a4=&a2=&a3=&f1=&f2=&p1=&p2=&s1=&s2=&s3=&c1=&c2=&c3=&d1=&d3=&d2=&d4=&g1=&g2=&ch1=&ch2=&z1=&z2=&sa2=&sa1=&mu2=&mu1=&chn2=&chn1=&tig1=&tig2=&tig3=&kit1=&kit2=&kit3=&kit4=&kit5=&kit6=&kit10=&kit11=&kit12=&kit7=&kit8=&kit9=&sp1=&sp2=&sp3=&spM=&pax31=&pax32=&rb1=&rb2=&o1=&o2=&l1=&l2=&ice1=&icei=&ice2=&ice3=&ice4=&ice5=&ice6=&ice7=&ice8=&ice9=&ice10=&ice11=&ice12=&ice13=&ice14=&ice15=&nexn=&nexx=&nexr=&nexg=&nexb=&nexw=&rainr=&rainwt=&rainpl=&raint=&rainna=&brindle1=1&brindle2=1&wf1=1&wf2=1&wf3=1&wf4=1&wf5=1&wf6=1

All My Appaloosas

https://www.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?runsearch=1&status=any&ageg=&agel=&agee=&erag=&eral=&erae=&heightg=&heightl=&heighte=&boneg=&bonel=&bonee=&f_basic=none&f_adv=none&f_limit=25&stallion=1&mare=1&gelding=1&spayedmare=1&bty=1&lined=lined&foundation=1&name=&name_lm=like&color=&color_lm=like&owner=241041&owner_lm=like&breeder=&breeder_lm=like&sire=&sire_lm=like&dam=&dam_lm=like&barn=&barn_lm=like&pasture=&past_lm=like&tattoo=&tat_lm=like&tat_and=and&club=&bc_lm=like&bc_and=and&e1=&e2=&a1=&a4=&a2=&a3=&f1=&f2=&p1=&p2=&s1=&s2=&s3=&c1=&c2=&c3=&d1=&d3=&d2=&d4=&g1=&g2=&ch1=&ch2=&z1=&z2=&sa2=&sa1=&mu2=&mu1=&chn2=&chn1=&tig1=&tig2=&tig3=&kit1=&kit2=&kit3=&kit4=&kit5=&kit6=&kit10=&kit11=&kit12=&kit7=&kit8=&kit9=&sp1=&sp2=&sp3=&spM=&pax31=&pax32=&rb1=&rb2=&o1=&o2=&l1=&l2=1&ice1=&icei=&ice2=&ice3=&ice4=&ice5=&ice6=&ice7=&ice8=&ice9=&ice10=&ice11=&ice12=&ice13=&ice14=&ice15=&nexn=&nexx=&nexr=&nexg=&nexb=&nexw=&rainr=&rainwt=&rainpl=&raint=&rainna=&brindle1=1&brindle2=1&wf1=1&wf2=1&wf3=1&wf4=1&wf5=1&wf6=1

HorseAngel · Jul 28, 2019 2:39 PM

Wow, you are so the teacher of the ways of the Leopards! I am actually taking as many notes as I can here! That would be great if you wouldn't mine doing that! I don't have any Gen2 mares old enough anyway, I still mostly have just foundations. I have about 30 breeding horses right now and a lot of them are appy mares! I had heard of PATN2 but wasn't sure if it was the same as PATN1! @Wolvevenfrost, you breed a lot of nice appalososas! Very cool!

HorseAngel · Jul 28, 2019 2:57 PM

Ok would this mare has PATN2 at all? She turned out to be a non-appaloosa but both her dam and sire were appies and it seemed that she hadn't gotten any app genes so could that be possible with her? https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=8897727

Humboldt · Jul 28, 2019 3:19 PM

LC2 My Everything

LC2 Exhibition

LC2 Marica

Taking a guess, but these mares are possibly PATN2. Their sire is likely the carrier as he was ECA3P+/ECA3P+ with a half body blanket.

LC Holiday Celebration

Taliesin · Jul 28, 2019 4:04 PM

Sure! There's been a whole giving thing going on and I've been giving away a bunch of straws to him, but you can't use straws w/o a basic upgrade I don't think, so we'll find a work around lol.
We don't know if PATN2 works exactly the same as PATN1 - there's some theory that it might affect spot size, and some of us are trying to figure it out.
Ok, so Lp is the on/off switch of appaloosa - if a horse doesn't get that it doesn't matter whether they have +, PATN1, PATN2, even snowflake (which is in a different spot, btw) - none of it does anything if the app gene isn't there to turn it on. So Raven just didn't get the app gene. Looking at her parents, her mother can't have PATN2 because she hom PATN1, and her sire looks like a typical hom +, so I doubt she has a PATN2 hiding under there. She's mostly likely + (dad) and PATN1 (mom). But it doesn't show, on her or on her test results, because she doesn't have an Lp to turn it on.
I agree with Humboldt's assessment of the horses they showed, those are all probably het PATN2.

Ok, so I looked through your appies, and I would guess that these two have PATN2:

RareGem 2 - It's hard to tell with her because of all the white, but it looks like her sire has a copy and I think she might have gotten it

Star Spangle Banner 2 - and this one has a blanket all the way up to her shoulders but no PATN1, which is pretty typical of a het PATN2

HorseAngel · Jul 28, 2019 7:29 PM

Oh so that's why she didn't get the spots! I thought that was rather wierd! I have about 6 of my appy breeding mares in the pasture right now(so you probably missed them but that's ok) to try and get them ready to use next season (with the bonus) to get a few more foals this time, so there not in the barn and I don't think you can see horses in another players pasture, can you? Thank you for the PATN2 overview! It helps a lot!:) I was going to breed Star Spangle Banner 2 to my other gen2 appy stallion Genie In A Bottle to see what I would get, going to be a lot more intresting now that she may have PATN2! I don't have any up grades to my account, I only have a free one, sorry if that makes it hard to work with(hope it doesn't mean that it can't be done, was really looking forward to using him next season).

HorseAngel · Jul 28, 2019 7:33 PM

What mares do you think I should breed to him or would be better to breed to him? He has two PATN and no app right? So does that mean I should use the mares that have only one copy of Llp and one or two PATN or with no PATN?

Taliesin · Jul 28, 2019 7:39 PM

I used the search to look at all of your horses with Lp, so they would pop up no matter where they are. I didn't actually go look at your barn. (I put your ID number in the 'owner number' field and selected Must Have for Lp). Also yes, you can go look at another player's pastures.
Oh, we can totally still do it, I was planning accordingly when I offered. Probably what I'll do is add you to my private chat room and put him up for stud in there for 1hb, then take him back down once you've bred the two mares you pick to him.

Taliesin · Jul 28, 2019 7:42 PM

If your goal is leopards, I'd breed mares like West Wind to him - ones with 2 Lp's and at least one PATN. That way the foals will end up with one Lp and have a decent chance at two PATN genes.

HorseAngel · Jul 28, 2019 8:02 PM

Oh ok, that works too! Yes, it is but I also Liked the KitM and hoped the foals would have that too(it's ok if they don't because I do want a leopard more). Ok I think I have two or three mares like that, I would have to look! Would you be ok with three?

HorseAngel · Jul 28, 2019 8:27 PM

ok wow, I thought I had more mares like that but I guess not. West Wind is about the only one the has both two Llp and One PATN1 and Dreamer of Colors is hom Llp too but has no PATN1. There are a few mares that have two PATN1 and one Llp(Ocean Snowflake & Black Beauty) and one mare the is one Llp and one PATN1(Pale Secrets), would any of them work still?

HorseAngel · Jul 28, 2019 8:31 PM

I did not know you could look up your player ID number like that! It made it so much easier to look at all my mares! Learned something new everytime! Oh and if they don't work then I guess I would still have one or two foals with the KitM, that's still so awesome!

Taliesin · Jul 29, 2019 9:25 AM

Oh yeah, being able to search by player number is super nice! I do it almost constantly, with my own horses and other peoples'.
Since he has no app, breeding him to the hom app mares is the only way to guarantee an app baby. The others, the foal will have a fifty-fifty chance of being appy. But he is homozygous for KitM, so all of his foals have it! He's also hom for pearl, DP, and KP, so all of his foals have those as well.

HorseAngel · Jul 29, 2019 1:12 PM

I see what you mean about the hom Llp mares, I only have two it would seem and those would all be great genes to have too! And I could use the new foals to breed those in to my own appie heard! Side question what is KP? I have heard of DP and some about the sooty gene but not sure what KP is. Oh and I also got 4 new appie mares today from another very nice player(there are so many like that, it's awesome as well) to help with the breeding of leopard appies! Their not 4 years so can't use them yet but they should help! I am very happy right now!:)

Taliesin · Jul 29, 2019 2:09 PM

Yeah the people here are awesome!
If you scroll up and look at Jack, KP (kit promoter) is what makes the cloudy whitish area over his shoulders. In order for it to show though, the horse has to have two copies of KP and two kit genes, such as KitM, tobiano, roan, sabino, or any of the white spotting genes. Jack's babies with your mares will carry it but not show it.
Here's a few of my other KP's for reference:

KPu LIVu SNFu Kakistos

1E KP1 Dark Spice

KP2 Bayamo

KP3 Faded Insignia - On this one the KP patch covers almost his whole body!

KP2 Pumpkin Pie Spice - This is one of Jack's babies.

HorseAngel · Jul 30, 2019 8:02 AM

Wow, haven't seen that before! Is it a hidden gene too? It doesn't seem to show up gene testing wise when I looked or did I miss it? So how would you know it a horse carries it?

LakeOndowaFarm · Jul 30, 2019 8:54 AM

Yes, KP is a hidden limited gene. It is has to be added to a foundation line in the GMT lab or roving gene sale, there is no way for it to show up randomly. For any hidden gene the only ways to know for sure that a lined horse carries the gene if the it has a homozygous parent or produces a homozygous foal.

HorseAngel · Jul 30, 2019 1:06 PM

Oh ok, just wasn't sure! Thanks! So it's the same with DP(dense pheomelanin)? That is a darkening gene of a horses coat from what I read, right?

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