HGG Community Forums

@kgstable ; I feel I need to refer you back to this discussion ;
https://www.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/43811/pt-scores-showing-vs-breeding-a-bit-old-but-good-info#Item_7
unless you keep all of your spelds for showing there is no reason to PT score your brood stock as it does not affect their breedability AT ALL
@bravo25 ;
I have mostly Yellow foundations ( as BlueRoanAppy is an almost unheard of HH ) with a spattering of XPros that I lucked into ; I breed all my foundation mares to B studs and leave them in pasture for the full 30 day foal bonus ; I cull all yellow 2g, as all my 2g fillies MUST be red ; unless they are a low Red and the mare is a HIGH Yellow ; they are better than the damm ( so I save that hbcash )
3rd gen I start to test mares ; even if a red mare drops a red filly ; I check to ensure the filly is " better" than the momma
Stud colts I am much harder on as for what ever reason I seem to get 2 or 3 boys for every girl ; not only do they have to look good ;they need to fit my color lines AND test higher than papa ; other wise it is SNIP ; I ll PT score on foals I have snipped and I like they way they look ; and if higher than a 10 i ll keep them for my show herd ; otherwise off t the auction they go

@bravo25 ; here is what i am doing with the Stud colts i am keeping : ( again i am MUCH harder onthe boys than the girls ) ; SheebaArab bought the other 3 boys from me


LG 3 Code by Cyfer SUP

I don't use benchmarks either. I just comp test all the foals that passed SBA to their parents after I do a color and paper check. IE, for 2nd gen, fillies must paper red and be superior to their dams. No yellows, obviously. 3rd gen, fillies must paper blue and be superior. No reds. 4th gen, fillies must be Gold/Blue and be superior. 5th gen, fillies must be Gold and be superior. Those are the main checks I use once I have had a look at the girls to see what they inherited, gene wise.

I have a min AFPT score that mares must meet for me to keep. Any that fall below that get culled. If I need to make room for new stock, the oldest mares retire. I also check mares starting at age 9 to see if they have at least 3 foals. Any that do not have 3 keeper foals (can be either intact or show stock that made the 11 PT score cut) by then get culled.

What about a blue mare from a red mare, how do you comp test?

@CrownnestRidge ; actually Confluence did a chart thing that helps :)
https://www.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/comment/208785#Comment_208785

So I've been thinking about this now for a while, and I could be wrong but I think the issue is that we just don't know precisely all of the variables that go into breeding and paper levels, and in some ways that makes the game more interesting. I agree that the chart is more about determining whether a foal will pass testing or not, but I think it does illustrate the unknowns that we are dealing with pretty well. We don't know exactly what a horse's "breeding score" is, just that it is determined by some combined range of the parents' breeding scores. The paper testing we can do can tell us approximately what their breeding score is by denoting a paper level, but again this could include a whole range of breeding scores.

I do know that breeding an A papered stallion to a Red papered mare (or B and Yellow) would increase the chances of the foals getting altered, and I think most of the foals that did pass would probably be As and Blues. What I don't know is whether those foals on average would be likely to have significantly higher breeding scores than the foals that are produced by a more even B stallion to a Red mare (or how long they would be the same as foals from an A stallion and Blue mare). It seems like doing a Red/A or Yellow/B pairing increases the range of possible scores so that you could get some very low-scoring ones and some very high-scoring ones whereas doing a Blue/A or Red/B pairing would probably get you scores that are consistently more similar to the parents'. Presumably, doing a Red/A pairing would have the Red mare bring down what the possible highest breeding score is. Doing a Blue/A pairing that are relatively low-down in the Blue/A paper range might not be able to produce any better than the Red/A pair. But doing a Blue/A pair that is higher up in the Blue/A paper range would certainly be able to beat the Red/A pair. I think the difficulty is identifying when your Blue/A horses are moving up within that paper range as opposed to staying at the lower end near Red/B. I have no idea how you'd establish a benchmark to tell you that. Probably you'd need separate benchmarks for each generation, maybe even a different one for the ones from Red/A vs. Red/B pairings because the ranges they produce are going to develop differently?

I'm guessing that's why so many people only comp test foals to their parent rather than doing a benchmark. If you only keep superior as opposed to AGA, you know that the range of possible foals that your foal can produce is going up, regardless of whether or not they papered up. Keeping AGA foals is a bit more dicey as I don't think we know exactly how large the range of the AGA testing result is and you might be getting a foal that isn't increasing the range of possible breeding scores for the next generation very much. Presumably we could figure it out a bit more by finding two horses that we know are the same (e.g. both exceptionally perfect), then adding 1% boosts to one until it tests superior or reaches 5%. Of course that would be pretty expensive...

I've had many instances of where a 3rd gen filly papering blue with a 2nd gen red papered dam but NOT testing superior to her dam. I've had a few Gold papered mares not testing superior to their blue papered dams either. That's why I always comp test. Higher papering doesn't guarantee that a filly is of better breeding quality than her dam.

Exactly. If a 3rd gen blue papered filly doesn't test superior to her 2nd gen red papered dam, then there's not enough of a difference between them to be worth keeping that filly. So I only keep superiors. I want to ensure that my lines progress in quality.

In reference to one of my earlier comments, I would like to use this filly as an example


11904913

She is 5th gen, she papered gold. Her dam is blue. All the stallions in her pedigree are superior to their sires. All the mares in her pedigree are superior to their dams except for the ones that aged out before the mare comp testing was available.

She comp tested AGA her dam despite the difference in their paper levels. That is why she is spayed and will be a show horse for me.

So with the information you guys provided, what would you do with this colt?

https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=11831145

He is a 5% boosted A that only makes him sup to sire & aga a 2nd Gen A stallion. I dont have the ability to clone him, so I either breed a low quality stud or take a severe loss & snip him. Thoughts?

Before you added the 5% was he AGA or worse ? did you test him against his dam as a filly ? I have only ever changed studs into mares if they were A and AGA dad ; to beef up my mare lines

As for 3rd gen Blues- I pick a mare that tested superior to a Blue dam, and that one's my benchmark. If they test aaga, I'll keep them. If they test worse, then they get the snip.

It is inevitable that you will accumulate higher quality horses as you go, or that you'll buy some from someone with higher standards. You can only really compare to the horses you have now, so periodically you will have to modify your system.

For instance, I have several 3g mares who tested superior to their Blue papered dams. But I know some of them are better than others, because mares I've tested against more than one will test aaga to one, then worse to another. I generally use one of my slightly lower ones as a benchmark, so I get enough passing to move on with generations, but enough failing to weed out low quality.

As I get more higher quality mares, I'll switch to using the slightly better ones exclusively.

The annoying thing is that while you don't have to spend a fortune comparison testing every season, it does take a lot of testing over time to establish good benchmarks.

If you're pickier than just papering & comp testing to parent or benchmark will satisfy, then you're just gonna have to spend some $$ on comparison testing.