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In this Discussion
- annismyrph October 2021
- Brandybrookes November 2021
- crazysnakelady November 2021
- erisna October 2021
- Kintara November 2021
- Nightphoenix November 2021
- Treble October 2021
What Visually Distinguishes Frame?
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I have been looking through the genetics guide, and I still don't know how frame differs from kit genes like tobiano. The little blurb that comes up on the genetics testing results says that frame will frame white areas with a base color. When I look at horses, I can't tell by mere visual inspection whether or not something is tobiano or frame. Right now, it doesn't seem so special that it's worth trying to avoid the lethal white combo to get. Does anyone have examples that will make this clearer?Game number 273531
Licensed for Ice 9, 13, 17, and 18, Shatterglass, Nacre, Paintbrush Cool, Axiom Blue, Chinchilla, and Watercolor
Breeder of Black Tobiano, Sabino, and Bay Kit M
Sale Barn: https://www.huntandjump.com/member.php?uid=273531&b_id=38569 -
It’s been a while since I researched white markings in horses, but these two I think I’ve got!
Tobiano produces patches of white that tend to cross the spine and have a smooth, rounded appearance. The white markings might have an “edge” to them of a slightly different color.
Frame produces white markings that tend to have a jagged appearance and focus on the horses sides and neck, and usually don’t cross the spine. (Hence the “frame”- it makes the horse’s base color look like it’s framing the white.)Give me a second and I’ll find some examples!
Tobiano:
Ze Show Pony Cups
White markings cross the spine, and though there are some jagged edges, by and large they have a rounded appearance.
Frame:
Ze Show Pony Choices
Jagged markings that don’t cross over the spine.
Of course, there are a LOT of variations in how much white a horse has; I’ve seen nearly entirely white tobianos, and ones who only have high white stockings. Frame can be as little as a tiny white spot on the belly, or highly extensive as above, or any amount in between. We also only see one side of a horse in HAJ- the other side could have completely different markings! And then when you bring combinations of genes into it, it can get complicated. :)) that’s the extremely basic gist of it though.
As to why some people choose to breed for it- it’s an aesthetic choice and technically low risk if you manage it right. For example, only ever breeding a heterozygous frame horse to a non-frame horse. I personally don’t encourage it in my lines, but that’s because I tend to be forgetful and like colors and patterns that breed true.Post edited by erisna at 2021-10-11 16:18:47I mostly play on mobile so I can't usually see signatures!
Breeding Pearl Warmbloods, Little Red Riding Ponies, and... whatever else suits my fancy lol. -
In my opinion frame is WAY easier to deal with than the kit genes because all you have to do is not breed frame to frame and you’re good to go! Apparently for the kit genes you not only have to worry about the genes themselves, but also the white factor. I say “apparently” because I don’t ever cross anything that has even a slight chance of being lethal because any risk is too much risk in my opinion.
And to add to what @erisna said, frame can also cause blue eyes, give the horse a white head, and the tail is usually one color.
And visual gene identification gets easier over time!
I have a frame pattern description in one of the articles I’ve written for my classes if you’d like me to find it :)Post edited by Nightphoenix at 2021-10-11 16:42:10I’m autistic and I struggle with any kind of communication, so I apologize in advance if I say anything rude or offensive because there’s a 99% chance that I have no clue I did it. I appreciate your patience with me! -
@erisna-Thank you for the details. I have a love of black-and-white tobiano,so this will help me with my breeding. Your tobiano example is good-looking.
I was surprised by my Freaky Friday horse, as I was told frame and got an almost-completely white horse with only a few specks. Genetics are a weird thing sometimes.Post edited by Treble at 2021-10-11 17:29:51Game number 273531
Licensed for Ice 9, 13, 17, and 18, Shatterglass, Nacre, Paintbrush Cool, Axiom Blue, Chinchilla, and Watercolor
Breeder of Black Tobiano, Sabino, and Bay Kit M
Sale Barn: https://www.huntandjump.com/member.php?uid=273531&b_id=38569 -
@Treble @Nightphoenix ; I have that page bookmarked lol
https://www.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/46196/frame-in-real-life#Item_14Thanked by 1Nightphoenix -
I meant a paper I wrote last semester, but that works too!I’m autistic and I struggle with any kind of communication, so I apologize in advance if I say anything rude or offensive because there’s a 99% chance that I have no clue I did it. I appreciate your patience with me!Thanked by 1annismyrph
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Frame is more like someone threw flour at it, while tobiano has basic white splashes.ID # 273464
- Anaconda Horses, Ponies and Collectibles -
Licensed for height regulator
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Frame needs another gene to show, so looks best with W20, W2 etc. The Freaky Friday horses are homozygous for frame (overo lethal white) which in real life die, thus why they are freaky! The Freaky Friday horses are white, or mostly, like a real life lethal white foal would be though
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@Kintara Frame doesn’t need another gene to show, actually :)
The expression can vary from basically nothing to very loud!Post edited by Nightphoenix at 2021-11-06 04:10:06I’m autistic and I struggle with any kind of communication, so I apologize in advance if I say anything rude or offensive because there’s a 99% chance that I have no clue I did it. I appreciate your patience with me!Thanked by 1annismyrph -
Frame is a favorite! They're so pretty! Tobianos as well. Here is a few of mine!
13433152
She is frame with W20 and diamond sparkle . There is no other kit genes that would affect her frame.
13633578
Here is one that has another factor
She is frame with SW1 and hom W20 frame can give some horses blue eyes.
Now tobianos are more sharp jagged marks that can cross over the body .
13633614
Here is a tobiano with W20 and shatter glass
Grahams time2g
Here is another tobiano with W20. Tobiano can be almost solid with just white stocking or be very loud as well!
Now a tovero which is both in one horse.
13139613
This one's a tovero he's got both frame and tobiano as you can see there's alot of white covering his body. If you look at his pedigree his dam was frame and sire was tobiano and distinguish a good difference on how the genes affect the markings on the horse.
Here is another tovero
12978226
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Also if you look at where the color crosses over to the white you can see a difference in texture on the frame horses vs tobiano. As you look you'll notice the framed horses have almost a cloudy texture between the solid and white .
Tobianos don't have that . There's are not blended and if you look closely the outer line is like a slight faded sharp line that outlines the solid color.
Tobianos don't normally have bald or large white faces. Yes they can still have white marking but often have a solid head and brown eyes.
Frames some solid some large often have white that is centered in the middle of the body and can have alot of white to there faces as seen above. Frame horses can have blue eyes .
Sometimes it's impossible to tell if a horse has a gene without genetically testing. Sometimes a horse can carry a frame gene and be completely solid. Sometimes it needs white factor or another gene to express the white marking like w20 . Like this horse right here
12621302
She is a chestnut frame but by looking at her without testing some may never know. She has minimal white factor so there's less white show. She also doesn't have any other kit genes to express the frame gene more.