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Cavalynn · Apr 12, 2022 9:32 PM

I usually end up with tons of superior papered 2G studs and was originally planning to keep only as many as I'd need for the 2G mares and then turn the rest into mares. But when I did the math, that started looking pretty expensive. I also already have a lot of superior 2G mares as well and not enough pasture space for all of them anymore anyway, so I started thinking I might be better off just snipping and/or auctioning the extra studs. Nobody seems to want them anyway even when they have good genes and paper better than their parents.

So now I'm thinking maybe I'd be better off saving my GMTs for higher generations where superior, intact mares might be a little more scarce. Right now I have quite a few A-papered 3G studs, but not so many Blue papered mares. What do you think, would it be worth GMTing most of the studs over to mares? How and when do you usually use GMTs for this?

Here's my A/Blue 3Gs:

https://www.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?runsearch=go&jump=0&hpp=100&f_basic=horsegender&name=3G&owner=218079&128=0&129=0&149=0&150=0&151=0&152=0&153=0&154=0

I'd appreciate any input! :)

annismyrph · Apr 13, 2022 2:26 AM

I dont generally swap colts to fillies until after the 5th generation; and just because a colt tests SUP to Sire does not mean he will test SUP to Dam with a gender swap. Sup foals ive found are much easier to come by in the "early " generations ( 1 2 3 ) and as you get higher generationally everything becomes a little harder ; when you breed your best to your best , the gains will come but slowly. I keep all my snipped 2g foals for show stock ( they might not PT Super High but they are a nice steady income ). and then i keep all my 5g and up for show stock also ( these usually paper in the 12's so these are my "long" term earners. I dont boost, so will probably not see the "14's" for quite some time. Hope this helps :)

Silverstar · Apr 13, 2022 4:42 AM

I might switch a 2g over, but only if the test aga my benchmark. All colts have to test aga my benchmark or they are snipped. The colt has to be pretty spectacular to get that switch. Higher generation I switch around more often but those still have to test aga my benchmark. Then once they get switched I have started using them as my mare benchmark for that generation. I wouldn’t do any switching if you haven’t done benchmark testing.

OfMoosehorn · Apr 13, 2022 5:38 AM

Dang, I feel like I'm such a newbie here. I'm just starting to get into my first 3g horses now (though they are still too young to breed) and I don't have have anything set up for benchmark testing. Is there a way you guys went about that kind of thing?

For more info, I only breed ExPer foundations, and I only keep A or Blue papered 2g foals that have a PT of 10.40 or higher intact. But I have been swapping the genders of all of my 2g and 3g colts that passed these perimeters (except for the few I kept for studs). Sounds like this isn't the best way to go about things? I'd love to hear people's opinions.

lecobb8888 · Apr 13, 2022 6:45 AM

If you have the GMT money to swap those genders, then go for it! Nothing wrong with that.

annismyrph · Apr 13, 2022 7:15 AM

OfMooseHorn , PT has nothing to do with Breedability ; PT is the benchmark for showing ; Higher PT = Higher leveling off = Potential Higher Earnings
A benchmark is one that is tested against others in his generation ; say a Stud has 20 colts ; 10 of which test Sup ; then you test those 10 against each other and keep the one ( or 2 ) that test SUP to all the others ; that colt is then the benchmark for that generation ; now next season you can test all the new colts against 2yo SUP colt and only keep the 1 or 2 that tests better than him

OfMoosehorn · Apr 13, 2022 7:36 AM

@annismyrph Gotcha, thanks! Yeah, I understand that PT is something separate, I just like the challenge of breeding the best of both. So I've only been comparison testing the colts with the highest PT scores to kind of get as much of the best of both worlds as I can.

Silverstar · Apr 13, 2022 11:36 AM

I would like to add that once you reach a certain level of benchmark finding a superior stallion to him is near impossible and as your lines become stricter the more aga colts you will get. I also use my benchmark as a way to save money comparison testing. I only test colts against him, knowing that only colts that test aga are worth keeping.

I have started doing benchmark testing my mares as well with an aga benchmark colt that I turn i to a mare. I want their breeding ability to be almost identical to the stallions. At this point I don’t mind the huge number of mares I’m culling.

Cavalynn · Apr 13, 2022 1:22 PM

Thanks for all the advice so far, @Silverstar and @annismyrph! I've also often wondered about the best way to use comparison testing and benchmarks. I haven't so far because I've only gotten to 3rd generation with my current lines and I've been able to rely solely on paper level for improvement. I figured when I got to a generation where I couldn't expect to see a full paper level improvement I would invest in a month of premium upgrade and do a bunch of comparison testing, but what's the most strategic way to do that? How many comparison tests do you tend to run to find a benchmark? Do you test every stallion in each generation? And what do people usually rely on more: superior to parent or superior to benchmark?

Thanks again for the input so far, I'm finding it really helpful. Though I've been playing the game for years, I've never been highly strategic about testing or building a show string. I've mostly just played with color genetics and kept my favorites that paper better than their parents to about 3rd gen, and then started over. So I'd like to practice getting past 3rd gen with my current lines and then start over with era 13 this summer and do it "right" from the start, since that's going to be the first new era completely free of boosted horses. :)

Cavalynn · Apr 13, 2022 1:24 PM

Oh, and how does the best in pasture foal fit in with your strategy? Do you compare hand bred or AI foals to a best in pasture foal of the same generation, or is that not a fair or useful comparison? Or is it worth always turning the best in pasture into a stud if its a mare and using him for the main stud for that generation? Can you avoid spending a ton of money on comparison tests that way?

annismyrph · Apr 13, 2022 2:49 PM

a GMT = 125k in hb's swapping a colt to a filly or vice versa is as expensive as testing a TON of foals; I honestly dont factor "best" in since a couple got snipped ; so is it best in pasture show horse or breeding horse? It hasn't been definitively answered, that I know of

Cavalynn · Apr 13, 2022 2:57 PM

Thanks @annismyrph, that makes sense. I've also wondered if the best in pasture means breeding or showing, or both. So far, all of my best in pasture foals have passed and they seem to consistently throw good foals as well. Maybe that's just chance or maybe the best foal is measured by a combination of showing and breeding ability.

Silverstar · Apr 13, 2022 9:09 PM

How many comparison tests do you tend to run to find a benchmark? Ehh, It probably took me 3-4 months of comp testing every colt in every generation before I found a really solid benchmark who wasn’t being replaced by a superior colt every breeding season. I started with the higher generations and worked my way backwards. So it depends

Do you test every stallion in each generation? Yes. Except once I reached a point where I have two amazing stallions per line and generation then I don’t always bother to test the colts at all, I just snip the lot of them.

What do people usually rely on more: superior to parent or superior to benchmark? Once a benchmark has been found, In future years I will comp test him against the new colts, geld anything that tests worse and keep the aga (or sell, snip, or gender swap). If I get a colt that tests superior to him, the new boy becomes the benchmark. I don’t comp test my boys against their sire once I have a benchmark because if they test aga a benchmark they will test superior to their sire. If I am going to use that boy as a stud then I will comp test against their sire for good measure, but it’s not necessary.

On the note of PT some of the best superior breeding stock will have those lesser PTs. I have also in the past had mares with dismal PT scores have foals with very high PT’s as well as amazing breeding abilities.

Cavalynn · Apr 13, 2022 9:27 PM

Thanks, @Silverstar! That's going to be very helpful to me in settling on a system. :)

Silverstar · Apr 13, 2022 10:10 PM

You’re welcome. On a side note I just recently started benchmarking my mares. Before that I required them to be superior to their dam. That worked for a very long time for me. Now I have RL issues taking up brain space so I can’t handle sorting so many foals, that’s the main reason I tightened my breeding lines down as hard as I have. So while I benchmark my mares it isn’t necessary, it’s just the new experiment I’m trying out.

Humboldt · Apr 14, 2022 8:07 AM

Best in Pasture is definitely a best in breeding ability. But take into account your pasture sizes. If you only have a few mares, the best may still not be all that good. However, in a full 100 mare pasture, the Best in Pasture foal is definitely worth keeping intact. If I get a colt and I really wanted a filly from that cross, then I will GMT.

I also embryo breed a ton (GMTd foundations). Because I use a lot of outside straws, I will for sure GMT foals the better fit if they test superior. I always need more mares so a lot of colts get turned into girls.

Cavalynn · Apr 14, 2022 10:48 AM

Thanks @Humboldt, that helps a lot. I always only use full 100-acre pastures with full 30-day boosts on the mares so now I'm thinking again that my best in pasture foal is probably worth turning into the main stud for that generation, or at least using for a benchmark. I know @annismyrph said that GMTing would be more expensive than comp testing a bunch of foals, but I have over 200 colts I'd have to test and only a basic upgrade, so it would be over a million and a half hbs. Much cheaper just to go by the best in pasture as long as that's purely breeding ability. And I almost never use hand breeding or AI breeding anyway, unless I'm gifted straws. The pasture boost and cheaper breeding fee just makes that seem like the best option to me.

Just a side note, yesterday I tested one of my B-papered best in pasture colts against an exceptional producing foundation stud and he tested superior. I was a little surprised, I thought he would only test as good as. Is this level of improvement typical? Does it mean he's almost an A?

Here he is:

2GPollock15275871BoB

Humboldt · Apr 14, 2022 11:55 AM

My exPro studs consistently give me A Papered colts, at least 2 a year from each stud. So he is likely a high B paper. I don't know if close to an A. I only keep A papered 2nd gen studs, so I don't compare them to each other.

Cavalynn · Apr 14, 2022 12:18 PM

@Humboldt Oh, I forgot to mention he's out of perfect foundation RS parents. I never breed exceptionals or boosted foundations, so B/Red papered is my minimum requirement for 2G. I always get at least half of them to paper better than their parents but I don't know what sort of range they are within that.

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