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What gene do I change? > Questions answered.
  • I have a horse that's blue, but I don't know what gene controls it. I want this little one blue, what gene do I need?

    image
    G3 Ax b chn DMSP 15723112


    Black: e/E Bay: a/a Cream: Prl/- Silver: -/Z Sooty: -/Sty Pangare: -/p Chinchilla: -/chn Axiom: b/-
    White Markings
    Splash: -/SW1 Appaloosa: LP/- Phantom: HRT/DMSP

    White factor extensive
    Post edited by OopsDotCom at 2022-05-12 21:44:20
  • Do you mean that you want it to be blue roan? If so you just have to add a copy of roan.
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  • Do you mean that you want her color to be blue? She'd need to have two copies of Axiom Blue, but the only copy of that in her pedigree is on her sire's side, so you won't be able to GMT it onto the dam's side.

    CLynnRose's suggestion of adding roan also wouldn't work for the same reason--there are no Kit mutations on either side of her pedigree.
    Post edited by SandyCreekAcres at 2022-05-10 19:21:01

    image
    Thanked by 1OopsDotCom
  • Thanks, @SandyCreekAcres. Sorry for the confusion, I guess I didn't read closely enough.
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  • Thanks for clarifying that.

    If it was your horse, would you change gender since a stallion can breed so many more times a year than a mare?

    edit to add, I don't think I could clone her, she's university bred. And I couldn't let her prove herself, as soon as I breed her she can no longer use the adv breeding lab. Can I still change her gender? (She's blue 10.7 and I don't have very many blues)
    Post edited by OopsDotCom at 2022-05-10 20:47:58
  • Do I need to be concerned at the white factor? Is that what causes the crib death?
  • Only if the horse also carries a combination of white genes that could be lethal. Then a high white factor will make the risk higher, and a low white factor might minimize the risk.
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  • When you say "only if the horse also carries a combination of white" do you mean this horse does carry it, or do you mean the horse I breed to must not carry it?

    I should also ask, is there a gene change that controls the white being intensive, and what happens if I reduce it? Would that make less chance of a dead foal? And what would the change look like?
    Post edited by OopsDotCom at 2022-05-11 00:41:19
  • I mean if the pairing has a chance of throwing a foal with a lethal combination of genes, then the white factor could contribute to that lethal load or possibly minimize it if the white factor is low. Splash 1 is not lethal with anything, as far as I know. I think Splash 3 might be, though. The splash genes aren't listed on the lethal gene chart, but you can check this for combinations of Kit genes to see if they could potentially be lethal:

    https://www.huntandjump.com/faq.php#870

    When it comes to reducing white factor, there is an option for that near the bottom of the gmt page. The horse will show less white markings with a lower white factor, so it will change its appearance. I don't know how heritable white factor is though, because I never really paid attention to it when breeding. It's the white factor of the foal that will affect whether or not a potentially lethal gene combo kills the foal.
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  • Splash 1 ( MITF variant) is indeed not lethal with anything.

    Splash 2 (PAX3) and Splash 3 (a separate MITF variant) are homozygous lethal and lethal combined with each other.

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  • I'm not sure where to look for these genes or perhaps they're just not there? And when I look at her, I don't see what I would call extensive white, I see very little. what am I not seeing?
  • Yeah, you’re right, she only has Splash 1, which is pretty safe to breed. I’m not an expert, but I haven’t noticed any problems with my splash 1 horses. The other comments were speaking more hypothetically about other types of splash.

    In terms of making her a stallion, it depends on what you want. I personally tend to try to make sure my stallions are homozygous for everything I want since they produce so many foals. If I breed him with my heterozygous mares, then I still have a 50% chance of getting a homozygous foal and a 100% chance of gettIng at least a heterozygous foal. Since she can’t be made hom for the blue axiom, if you have or can produce a hom stallion, that will make it easier going forward for you to get hom blue axiom foals.

    If you don’t have a homozygous stallion, then sure, she could work as a stallion, you’ll just have to be more patient for getting homozygous p foals.
    Post edited by CrowsnestRidge at 2022-05-12 05:24:50
    ID #265959 | He/him | Breeding Black Satin, Liver, and Grullo Arcturus Horses | Licenses: Mushroom, DFP2, Onyx, Axiom Blue and Green
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  • If you open her page and check the Genetic Testing Results, you'll find that she has extensive white factor. That's why her legs have high whites and there's a lot of white on her face. That's also why, whether you leave her a mare or change her to a stallion, the mates should probably have a lower white factor, and I would also avoid the Kit mutations that give more white and probably splash 2 and 3, which produce a lot more white on a horse than splash 1.
    I think that the "lethal gene chart" referred to shows the risk in breeding the various Kit mutations with each other.
    Post edited by SandyCreekAcres at 2022-05-11 19:40:55

    image
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  • I'm afraid that chart doesn't help me because I don't know what the different colors or numbers mean. I don't even understand what Kit is for. Often when I look at the book that shows all the genes with a picture of the horse, I still don't understand that. Often when I am looking for information it is meaningless to me because the horse I am trying to look at won't be able to click on. Thank you, but I need some help, Sandy.
  • I have to confess that my own understanding of the Kit gene is rather weak. It's a very, very complex gene. In fact, I'm not sure it can be understandably explained in ordinary language.

    Here's what the Kit gene does in horses:
    The KIT gene has crucial function for the development of many cell types, including blood and pigment cells (melanocytes). Mutations that affect normal functioning of the KIT protein often result in lack of melanocytes in the skin and hair follicles, which leads to white patterning in horses known as dominant white.

    The KIT gene provides instructions for making a member of a protein family called receptor tyrosine kinases. Receptor tyrosine kinases transmit signals from the cell surface into the cell through a process called signal transduction.

    Here's a link to the page from UCDavis where they do gene testing for horses. I don't know if it will give you any help, but if you want to check it out, you can.

    https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/test/dominant-white-horse

    Here's a link to my Google search for "kit gene in horses".

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  • "Kit" is the locus (location on the genome) that can have alleles (version of the gene) of the various Kit mutations: tobiano, roan, kit M, all the whites (1, 2, 3, 8, 10, 20), and the sabino variations (1 and 2). The horse you posted in this thread has no Kit mutations. The white markings this horse has is Splash 1 (which is non-lethal, always), located on a different part of the genome than the Kit mutations.

    Try opening up the horse search page and go to the "White Markings" tab. Take a look at the options under "Kit Locus" to see all the different Kit mutations. Browse the other gene options on that tab and you'll see a separate section for Splash, Splash 2, Appaloosa, Rabicano, Frame, etc. For each section, a horse will have exactly two of those alleles, one inherited from the dam and one from the sire, no more, no less. It's those inherited genes that could possibly create a lethal combination.

    To check if a lethal combination is possible, open this chart:

    https://www.huntandjump.com/faq.php#870

    Then look at the genes of the two horses you want to breed and check the Kit locus. On the chart, imagine that the genes along the left (just the ones that your horse carries) are coming from the dam and the genes along the top are coming from the sire, and then follow the row and column like a multiplication table to see where they intersect. If they intersect at a green square, the cross is safe. But if the color is yellow, red, or dark red, there's a greater and greater chance that the foal will die. For example, if the dam carries White 1 and the sire carries White 2, there is a very high chance that the foal will die. If, on the other hand, the dam carries tobiano and the sire carries roan, that cross is completely safe.

    Other lethal crosses not shown on this chart are Frame (denoted with an "O") which is always lethal with two copies. And Splash 2 and 3, which are also lethal with two copies or with each other. (I don't breed splash 2 or 3, so I'm not sure how lethal they are, if it's a certainty or just a strong chance.)

    Let me know if that helps or you need anything else clarified or would like different examples. :)
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  • @annismyrph Do you still have that bookmarked discussion with the image of the white gene chart I made? I can’t find it.

    @OopsDotCom Kit genes with white factor is incredibly confusing. I don’t want to lose any foals to a lethal gene combo, so I made this chart to reference when I’m breeding. To keep things simple, the white squares mean the cross is safe and the black squares mean that the cross could kill the foal. I didn’t bother with calculating all the chances of death for each cross because they all have different levels of danger. If the square is black, I just don’t do it.

    Of course you can do crosses with the black squares, but you could lose the foal. I’ve only lost one foal in two years of playing, and that was because I was basically sleepwalking and accidentally bred frame to frame @-)
    I’m autistic and I struggle with any kind of communication, so I apologize in advance if I say anything rude or offensive because there’s a 99% chance that I have no clue I did it. I appreciate your patience with me!
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  • Thanks, anni! Mine includes the splash genes, so thanks for finding it!
    I’m autistic and I struggle with any kind of communication, so I apologize in advance if I say anything rude or offensive because there’s a 99% chance that I have no clue I did it. I appreciate your patience with me!
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  • All of this sort of makes sense to me when I add your posts together. I'm going to keep this thread bookmarked and when I breed, I'm going to go step by step through those charts. Thank you very much for your patience.
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