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Brandybrookes · Dec 28, 2021 3:49 AM

I hope I have this in the right spot :D
My child hood mare who I recently sold is on her APHA paperes considered a chestnut tobiano . She appears to be a darker chestnut like a copper penny and around her hocks and knees it would darken to a liver then tall white stockings. She also has a line that goes down her spine that appears as a dark liver color as well. She is very coppery red based.
The more I learn about the genetics the more I have questioned her mane and tail.
Red based horses normally only have red based or flaxen manes and tails unless there's another gene at play right? :-/
I'm curious as being a paint I know you can get some pretty fantastic looking horses with multiple colors.

Her dam was a bay tobiano
Her sire was a palamino tobiano
Her 2 siblings one was a solid black paint the other was a palamino tobiano.

My question is how would a chestnut horse end up with a tri colored mane and tail? Chestnut/white/black ? Has anyone else ever had a horse similar to her?

Her name was destiny .

Please let me know if the link works. I'm not the best at getting pictures to load from phone. :-B

Brandybrookes · Dec 28, 2021 3:50 AM

.

Nightphoenix · Dec 28, 2021 5:06 AM

I can’t see the link, but if both parents were tobiano, she probably is too. Tobiano can cause multiple mane colors.

Ammit · Dec 28, 2021 5:18 AM

You have to actually upload the images to an image hosting company like Imgur for us to see them. :) You could also upload them to our Facebook group.

Brandybrookes · Dec 28, 2021 6:52 AM

Working link below.

Cherobird · Dec 30, 2021 6:37 AM

Image still doesn't work for me D: I've heard horses with tri colors called calico. Such as dun or buckskin tobi with a dark brown/black and white striped mane. Is this something like what you're describing? I think calico is a more colloquial name for it, not sure what the actual term is.

Nightphoenix · Dec 30, 2021 8:55 AM

I think calico is an old term for an old pinto pattern. The definition I learned in 4H Horse Bowl sounds like one of the sabino mutations. I don’t know for sure, though.

Brandybrookes · Dec 31, 2021 8:43 AM

She is the horse that my profile picture. If that helps since I've been unable to load a better one that shows full side veiw and the mane .
I looked at her lines and her sires side were all either perlino , cream , or palamino . Mom's side were either bay or black .

Kurihund · Dec 31, 2021 9:35 AM

She looks to be Chestnut Tobiano, I dont see dilution for dun on her body and her legs dont have black points. , so I dont believe shes bay. The pictures kind of hard to see though :).

Brandybrookes · Dec 31, 2021 10:25 AM

Yeah she doesn't have black points but they are a darker red . Her tail on the left side is chestnut and on the right is white and in the middle it's all black . Her main is similar. It seems to split between the chestnut and white. If I could pull her foal pictures her tail before grown out it's very distinctive in where each color is. Maybe it is something tobiano can cause? I've tried Google searching it but haven't been able to find anything. Her dam has a black tail with white tips but no other kind of color. She's got some older lines idk if something stemmed from a horse. Most of her lines are three bars , skip supreme lad , ler opal rocket and that's all I could think of off the top ofy head without physically looking at her paperes.

Nightphoenix · Dec 31, 2021 5:14 PM

Do you know her sire and dam’s registered names? I can try it dig around online a bit and try to see if she has any similar horses in her pedigree :)

She seems like a normal (but gorgeous!) chestnut tobiano to me :)

Brandybrookes · Dec 31, 2021 6:15 PM

Her sires name is chief spirit warrior , ID 747,799 .
Her dams name LER classyopal rocket ID 693,741.
Her dams line consists of classical bar maid 153,239. EK Rangos queen 149,843.
Raise a rock it 82,000.
Sissy brick 54,261.

Her sire has , Hanks golden girl 216,909
Chancy cat "QH" 1,281,235.
Sunshines sonnet 203,599
Skips supreme LAD "QH" 1,766,833

Nightphoenix · Jan 1, 2022 6:08 AM

I dug around and from what I can tell she’s just a normal chestnut tobiano. From the information you gave, she had an 18.75% chance of being either a chestnut tobiano or a palomino tobiano and a 16.41% chance of being a bay tobiano. She’s definitely not black, bay, or palomino, so she has to be a chestnut tobiano :)

Brandybrookes · Jan 1, 2022 12:24 PM

Does tobiano cause a split for color? As in the mane and tails to cause them to be 3 different colors?

Brandybrookes · Jan 1, 2022 12:31 PM

I looked around and tobiano is noted to cause a split of 2 alleles in the mane and tail so the chestnut and white but where is the black coming from as that would be a 3ed allele right?

Brandybrookes · Jan 1, 2022 12:48 PM

Ok I tried another site hopefully it works.
https://www.linkpicture.com/q/IMG_20211228_063935791.jpg

https://www.linkpicture.com/view.php?img=LPic61d0bd9f90784988047411
I tried the same picture 3 different ways in hopes it works one way or another.

Brandybrookes · Jan 1, 2022 12:51 PM

There it works :) try the first link on last comment.

GoldenHeartAcres · Jan 1, 2022 1:22 PM

It looks like the darker end of her tail is just a deeper, more pigmented shade of red. I'm not seeing anything that indicates she has black in her mane or tail and she genetically cannot as far as I understand.

Brandybrookes · Jan 1, 2022 2:18 PM

The middle is definitely black . Her mane I am unfortunately standing in the way in the linked picture where the white crosses over the black and chestnut. It's hard showing without seeing it in person :( the linked image is a better veiw. Her foal picture is even better but haven't posted it yet.

GoldenHeartAcres · Jan 1, 2022 4:21 PM

I'd be interested in seeing her mane. Her tail definitely looks to be darker red at the bottom but not black. If her mane truly is black, she could have a somatic mutation that only affects that part of her body. What you could do is pull hair samples from the black and non-black parts and send them both in for testing to determine if they are genetically the same or not.

Humboldt · Jan 1, 2022 4:29 PM

Sometimes the red is so dark, it appears black. However, if you examine the hair close up, its still actually red. I had a palomino with varying mane and tail colors. Mane was mostly blonde shade but tail ranged from blond silver red and some hairs that looked black. I put them on a microscope once and they were deep deep red.

Brandybrookes · Jan 1, 2022 4:32 PM

I did keep some locks of her hair. I did recently sold her to a family not far from me. I may see about having it genetically tested to see what exactly is happening. I've only seen tri colored manes and tails in dun colored paints.

GoldenHeartAcres · Jan 1, 2022 4:35 PM

If you do pursue testing, you need to pull hair. The sample needs to have the bulb from the root on it. I agree with Humboldt, though, it could just be so dark that it looks black.

GoldenHeartAcres · Jan 1, 2022 4:38 PM

This guy is a liver chestnut and his tail is so dark, it looks black.

http://www.silverstone-ranch.eu/photos/smartest-magician-harry-potter-354.jpg

Brandybrookes · Jan 1, 2022 5:21 PM

Hmm your right. Maybe ? I just know her tail on the ends appeared like they had some sun bleaching or like our own hair when it's damaged it tends to fade or lighten on the ends. She used to be my show horse growing up and everyone always wanted her for her mane and tail and I always thought it was because it was pretty. 16 years later I realize a tail like that is not common . I never did buy a fake tail for her. I could imagine the expense it would have been getting it custom made to match hers!

LavenderRidge · Jan 29, 2022 2:37 PM

It could be just darker, or her coat has sun bleaching to make it look darker. Sometimes the pangare on pintos make certain areas look lighter or darker because the white markings cover the transition from light to dark.

LavenderRidge · Mar 27, 2022 9:30 PM

@Brandybrookes I found a chesnut quarter horse stallion that has the same thing going on with its tail. You can find it on 6666 ranch's page on instagram and the stallion's name is Mr Playinstylish.

Brandybrookes · Dec 8, 2022 4:17 PM

Funny thing is doc bar is on my mares paint registry. Her registered name is sjb barmaids destiny . But his does look more like liverish compared to my mares. Her litterly looks jet black and she has white and chestnut . The right side of tail is all white , the middle looks black and then the left side of tail is chestnut.
Her mane is similar , it goes from white to a black to chestnut . I think i read somewhere that the tobiano gene can cause this. I have to see if i can find where i found the info but i did meet a pony who also was chestnut tobiano who also had the same tail. But his mane was all chestnut.

RedtailFoxFarm · Dec 8, 2022 5:15 PM

I’ve got an AQHA pony that is sorrel with flaxen (on her registration, coggins, etc.). The only white she has on her is a small star. Her mane is your typical bright flaxen, but her tail is a lot darker. If you look at it closely, you can see black, chestnut, flaxen, and even white hairs in there. Also, her legs fade from the copper color of her body to about the color of her mane from about halfway between her knees and fetlock and down to her hoof. I’m guessing this might be a relatively minor representation of pangare, as she also has slightly lighter parts on the underside of her stomach, her flank, and a little around her muzzle. RL horses can have some funky coloring that just baffles me (also, if anyone wants to impart genetics wisdom with reference to this, please disperse knowledge as you please lol)

Brandybrookes · Dec 9, 2022 9:50 AM

I found another chestnut horse with a tail like my mares. Hes on a live auction as a cattle horse lot 405

https://www.ehorses.com/buy-horse/paint-horse.chestnut.html

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