HGG Community Forums

Ammit · Oct 25, 2023 11:18 AM

I am looking for feedback on this idea.

A common trend is members not understanding what breeding advice is for. They want it to be either an absolute judge of quality or tell them how good the foal is for that cross. How it actually works is to compare the foal against the sire, and then separately compare the foal to its dam, and if it is a good deal worse than either it fails the foal. This means that some crosses will never produce a foal that passes as one parent always drags the quality down too far.

I think how people really expect it to work is for it to tell you if this foal is a good foal for that particular cross.

Example using completely made-up numbers:

Sire has an ability of 125, dam has an ability of 95. The average ability of both parents is 100. Foals are an average of the parents plus or minus a weighted random factor. Let's say foals can be born with an ability of 92 to 117 from these parents and that the average foal is born with an ability of 109.

Right now it is impossible for this cross to ever produce a foal that passes breeding advice because even the best possible foal at 117 (a foal massively better than the dam) does not compare well to the sire.

How I think people intuitively expect breeding advice to work is for any foal that is better than average for this cross to pass. (The exact passing percentage could be dialed in) In this case, any foal that was say 110 breeding ability or better would pass breeding advice. It would make breeding advice more intuitive and more newbie friendly, plus allow bootstrap breeders access to basic testing and not have to see that untested message constantly. (I would leave strict breeding advice alone. )

I am interested to hear what you think the pros and cons of such a switch would be.

RKO · Oct 25, 2023 11:33 AM

I am not sure on the question, if average of the sire and dam is 100 even though dam is listed has 95, than shouldn't the foal be better the 95(say 97 and above) and so wouldn't the foal pass breeding test? I get very confused with this, I have had many a foal that had what I thought was nice stats tested, only to have it gelded or spayed. So if I am unsure about the foal I tend not to test them because they have a gene that I wish to keep in my breeding herd. I would make it a bit more user friendly, maybe have the best stat of either parent pass on to the foal or maybe have away to see what the foal would be if you picked a sire and dam, than checked to see if the pair would be a good cross or even a bad cross for the backward breeding folks.

Ammit · Oct 25, 2023 12:05 PM

"I am not sure on the question, if average of the sire and dam is 100 even though dam is listed has 95, than shouldn't the foal be better the 95(say 97 and above) and so wouldn't the foal pass breeding test? "

You are proving my point. ;) You think breeding advice cares that the foal is higher than the dam but as it works now that doesn't matter. The foal can never pass because it will always be worse than the sire. I am proposing a change that would measure how good the foal is for the cross instead of measuring it raw against either parent.

RKO · Oct 25, 2023 12:16 PM

@Ammit I am glad I could help lol, I just do not know how to aid you when it comes to the writing scrip stuff, I just see that one of my foals(usually the pick of the crop) get fixed and just become a show pony.

Fiddler · Oct 25, 2023 12:17 PM

I would appreciate the change.

annismyrph · Oct 25, 2023 12:43 PM

I thought that's what the changes in the "script" that was implemented a short time ago was doing? When it says "The sire/ dam of foal "XYZ" can produce better foals, I would not breed this one." Or am I completely mis understanding that sentence?

Cavalynn · Oct 25, 2023 12:49 PM

I know that most players will probably want this change, but I just want to point out that it will make it harder for basic upgrade accounts to progress their lines and compete on the leaderboards unless they spend a lot of hbs on comp testing. Could there be a setting to custom calibrate breeding advice, or toggle between the two types, or add a new type instead of changing basic breeding advice? That way we can have a test for players looking for maximum improvement and also for players looking for decent improvement but are more interested in color and continuing the line. I know if I didn't have a premium upgrade, I really wouldn't want this change because I want breeding stock to be better than both parents and I want breeding advice to whittle down the stock I'll have to pay to paper and comp test. On Forest and Mesa, I have basic accounts and this would slow down the progress of my lines there.

Cavalynn · Oct 25, 2023 12:51 PM

@annismyrph I think RKO is talking about a change to the actual game code, as this potential change would be. The change to the message before was just wording shown to the player, it didn't change anything about how the game code works.

Ammit · Oct 25, 2023 1:48 PM

@annismyrph Breeding advice has not been touched. The message was edited to make it more clear why the foal failed but the way it tested was not changed at all.

Ammit · Oct 25, 2023 1:50 PM

", I really wouldn't want this change because I want breeding stock to be better than both parents and I want breeding advice to whittle down the stock I'll have to pay to paper and comp test."

@Cavalynn to be clear you already have to pay for comparison testing if you want that because not even strict breeding advice guarantees that the foal will be better than both parents. So nothing will have changed on that front. Breeding advice has never guaranteed that.

annismyrph · Oct 25, 2023 2:06 PM

I always do breeding advice and comp testing on every foal with the exception of my bootstraps, and even then i ll do BA on the colts, becuase i dont need to comp test until after i am sure they pass BA, most colts are for show horses anyway

RedtailFoxFarm · Oct 25, 2023 2:28 PM

I would love this change. I do a lot of breeding with **Gold mares and ***Star boosted studs, the offspring of which will never pass the current breeding advice system. One breeding season, I was doing bulk color testing, performance testing, and breeding inspection on all the foals for that season like usual and I accidentally hit the breeding advice button. All of the foals from that season were spelded and I lost a season of potential breeding stock that I couldn’t afford to unalter and then do my usual comp testing.

A switch to BA where it would test to compare the foal to the potential range of what the sire-dam match could produce would make dealing with this type of breeding so much easier. I don’t like having so much of my breeding stock left as untested because I’m always worried I’m accidentally going to speld a horse in my breeding program lol

I don’t think using a system where BA compares a foal to the potential range rather than to the sire and dam separately would make much of an impact for those that do even breeding, since the sire and dam should have close to or the same breeding ability

MackZ · Oct 25, 2023 3:44 PM

I agree with @RedtailFoxFarm. I also do both even and uneven breeding to reach different goals, and if basic BA were changed to compare foals to the average breeding potential of a match, I think it would actually be good for both types of breeding. It seems like it might also help even breeders have a better idea of how close their mares and studs are in ability.

Fiddler · Oct 25, 2023 4:05 PM

Wait, how do you comparison test a foal to its opposite sexed parent?

annismyrph · Oct 25, 2023 4:08 PM

@Fiddler ; you cant unless you switch the sex of the foal ; But BA/ SBA does use both the dam and the sire in the current test, but within a scale I believe. The new test would be more "open" I guess and give you a better understanding of the foals ability, if I am understanding this change correctly ; its almost a mini comp test.

Ammit · Oct 25, 2023 4:24 PM

Something that folks may find useful information. Under the proposed system if you have a double boost over cap quality stallion and breed it to a cap-quality mare, cap-quality foals (and only cap-quality foals) would pass breeding advice.

The same double-boosted stallion bred to a perfect foundation mare would have star/gold foals pass breeding advice and only star/gold foals.

Cavalynn · Oct 25, 2023 4:44 PM

"...not even strict breeding advice guarantees that the foal will be better than both parents. So nothing will have changed on that front."

But if more horses are passing breeding advice, then that will mean more hbs spent on papering and comp testing to find the keepers. Even though the ones that pass now still need to be comp tested to be sure they're superior, if testing is at least altering more of them, then that's less to spend on further testing.

Also, I sometimes breed B to Yellows to artificially make breeding advice more strict and I was thinking of doing that more, but that wouldn't work anymore with this change. As long as SBA remains the same, I could adapt to the change.

Ammit · Oct 25, 2023 4:50 PM

Keep in mind you also own over 10,000 horses and have played for over 8 years so are employing strategies that simply would never apply to even most advanced players. And I am not sure anyone who wants to use breeding advice like that would also not have a premium upgrade. So it is purely hypothetical that it might impact anyone negatively.

Cavalynn · Oct 25, 2023 6:16 PM

I'm starting to like the idea of the change more the more I think about it. It would also create a reason to use regular breeding advice even with access to strict breeding advice if it works by using a different algorithm and not just a less strict version of the same.

Brandybrookes · Oct 25, 2023 6:27 PM

What about a testing button to compare a sire and dam to see how well they match up? Kinda like how we test for the pt scores. Either the breeder or vet loves it and thinks the foal will have a good head on its shoulders or would advise not to breed those two.

Ive always liked testing against the parents and you can see after a few breedings with swapping stallions which mares pair up better per stallion .

Even a post that helps better understand the breeding abilities and how it affects each cross depending on the parents. Im sure helps.

Ammit · Oct 25, 2023 7:01 PM

The game really doesn't work that way. Mares do not pair better with some stallions than others. Also there are no bad match ups (except for lethal crosses) so I don't think that would be helpful for new or experienced players.

There have been tons of posts and faq stuff and wiki stuff about how this all works.

OopsDotCom · Oct 25, 2023 8:15 PM

I like Cavalynn's suggestion to add a third type of breeding advice test. That gives us the best of both worlds.

RedtailFoxFarm · Oct 25, 2023 11:03 PM

@Ammit Under the proposed system, would any foal out of two boosted parents (***Star and ***Gold) ever pass breeding advice?

i.e. Would it be none of the foals passing BA or just the cap-quality foals passing BA since cap-quality would be the closest any foal from that match could get to being on par with the parents’ boosted breeding qualities

CheshireFarms · Oct 26, 2023 2:20 AM

Since I always use SBA and Comp Testing, I don't know if I'd even be impacted by the change.

I would be interested to understand how this would help our bootstrap lines. Sometimes I can't remember if BA testing them gelds them all, or only SBA. So sometimes I just don't do it, and weed them out based on PT and other desired characteristics.

For those of us with long established lines, would this improve the passing rate for (***) horses? I was under the impression we'd most likely have to boost to avoid auto gelding after a certain point.

For example of the 35 even bred 11th generations I have bred, only 1 passed SBA and the other 4 I have breeding had to be boosted or maxed + boosted.

I've been trying for 4 months now to breed a passing 12th gen, but I have 9 gelds/spays.

Ammit · Oct 26, 2023 4:16 AM

I will not be adding a third kind of testing. I don't feel that is warranted and would just cause confusion.

RedtailFoxFarm - Two cap level parents could have foals that pass, two single boosts *** parents might but it would depend on how I calibrated it. Two double-boosted *** parents would never have a foal that passes because no unboosted foal will ever compare favorably to those parents. You would have to boost to get a foal from those two to pass same as now.

CheshireFarms "weed them out based on PT" Well as this is as good as random pick it would definitely give you a far more accurate test for your bootstrapping. PT tells you nothing about how good of a breeder that foal is. *** are never born do you mean foals from *** horses? It sounds like your 11th gens are not actually even. Even generation does not mean even ability. This would indeed help your passing rate depending on what you have done with the boosting.

Ammit · Oct 26, 2023 9:19 AM

Because hypotheticals are fine but data is KING I did the actual testing.

Here is the result of creating 600 foals and testing them with the current breeding advice
Perfect Foundation X Perfect Foundation: 58 intact foals, 4% of passing are foals worse than both parents
Cap Quality X Cap Quality: 21 intact foals, 4% of passing are foals worse than both parents
Exceptional Producer X Perfect Foundation: 35 intact foals, all passing foals are better than the dam
5% Boosted Ex-Pro X Perfect Foundation: 25 intact foals, all passing foals are better than Expros
10% Boost Cap X Cap Quality: 0 intact foals
Average Star X Perfect Foundation: 0 intact foals

And I did the same 600 breedings again but this time with my proposed BA changes.
Perfect Foundation X Perfect Foundation: 31 intact foals, all passing foals are better than parents
Cap Quality X Cap Quality: 27 intact foals, 4% of passing are foals worse than both parents
Exceptional Producer X Perfect Foundation: 27 intact foals, 2% of passing foals are worse than the sire
5% Boosted Ex-Pro X Perfect Foundation: 31 intact foals, All foals passing foals are as good as Expro or better
10% Boost Cap X Cap Quality: 24 intact foals, All passing foals are cap
Average Star X Perfect Foundation: 26 intact foals, all passing foals are A/Blue or better

The number of intact foals received is much more predictable. You have fewer passing foals at the lower levels but the same rate of passing at cap level. You actually end up with strict breeding levels of pass rate on the Perfect Foundation X Perfect Foundation breedings, which I think is beneficial. I could tweak the formula a bit but I feel like these passing rates feel right and what people want breeding advice to give them.

Fiddler · Oct 26, 2023 10:16 AM

in the new changes, in the below instance; how many are better than dam? or are the worse than sire foals better than dam?
Exceptional Producer X Perfect Foundation: 27 intact foals, 2% of passing foals are worse than the sire

bluchrystals · Oct 26, 2023 10:18 AM

Sounds like it would definitely be beneficial for my BootStrap herd. I could actually cull instead of only saving the high PTs for breeding.

Ammit · Oct 26, 2023 10:23 AM

Fiddler - Sire is 5% better than dam so if all foals are 2% worse than sire then 100% of the passing foals are better than the dam.

I only made notes when I thought the information was relevant or interesting.

Cavalynn · Oct 26, 2023 12:15 PM

@Ammit, thanks! That data really puts my mind at ease about this change. One question though, is that set of foals a new crop for the second round of testing or the same crop of foals unaltered and retested with the proposed new testing?

Ammit · Oct 26, 2023 12:45 PM

Same crop unaltered and retested so there is no random factor to obscure the numbers.

Herzeloyde · Oct 26, 2023 2:21 PM

I have no problems with the old system, and will adapt with zero problems to a new system as well.

I love that it will still be the same challenge to breed above the cap, that is the fun of it

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 3:53 AM

Another proposed change.

What if strict breeding advice always passed cap quality foals? That would be the only change to how SBA worked. If you are good enough to be the best the game can produce naturally you get to pass. That way if you are breeding cap-quality horses you can keep a line going using SBA that is only cap quality and not need to fuss around with boosting to make sure of that.

Humboldt · Oct 27, 2023 3:56 AM

I only use SBA so I would be fine with changing BA to help new players.

I like that idea of SBA allowing cap quality foals to pass. I can't afford to boost so that would give me a little more time with my older lined horses.

annismyrph · Oct 27, 2023 4:33 AM

@Ammit , I love the SBA being used on "cap foals" ; I cant afford to boost either and its disapointing every month to have to geld or spay most of an entire generation.

Fiddler · Oct 27, 2023 6:03 AM

Yes, yes.. it is disappointing for our best bred foals to hit a glass ceiling so to speak! It would give me incentive to breed for gold knowing they have a future, you know?

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 8:14 AM

Did something change today? Yesterday I was getting feedback on BA if it was the mare that was superior and causing the speld or if it was the stallion. Today I just get "this foal is not a good cross", which gives me no information to build on. Is that a permanent change? If so, I don't understand the purpose.

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 8:19 AM

Cleverwolf the new system no longer compares the foal to the stallion and mare, only to the quality of the foal for that cross. You will need to use SBA if you still want those messages. That message was only there in an attempt to teach people how breeding advice worked. Since it no longer works that way the messages no longer apply.

The entire post talks about the purpose of the change and explains it in-depth.

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 8:21 AM

This has been pushed live to the game. Have fun testing!

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 8:27 AM

I was trying to follow that.. So in essence we have to pay for the premium level of membership in order to have the information that was available in basic until now.

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 8:38 AM

So in order to get the feedback on what crosses will produce viable fillies (instead of spelds or endless colts), we now have to do rounds of comparison testing and/or SBA? I had been planning the breeding program around keeping notes on what crosses paired to start progressing lines but now I'm at a loss

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 8:40 AM

Nope. Not the case at all. You no longer need that information because it is no longer helpful to you. You now have a far more useful breeding advice system. If you want to know if the sire or the dam is the better horse you can just look at them and know that information for free. You have never needed the test to give you that information.

Also, it was not a "til now" thing at all. It has not even been in the game for a single month.

10/3/2023 6:17 AM Ammit added:
Added the "X has a very flighty temperament. I would not breed this one." message to breeding advice for the situation where a foal does not pass only because of inconsistency but not because of parental ability.

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 8:41 AM

"So in order to get the feedback on what crosses will produce viable fillies "

All crosses can produce viable fillies now. That is the entire point of the change. To help you out. This change is very good for your basic-level account and will help your lines improve.

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 8:43 AM

What information do we use? Because all my crosses that led to viable young are no longer working. What is this more useful breeding advice system? Cuz the only information I am getting is it isnt a good cross.

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 8:45 AM

So it just doesn't matter who we breed to who? It's random? Where is the information to figure this out? At least before I had a ranking system that was working

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 8:46 AM

The answers to all of your questions are written out in detail in this thread.

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 8:48 AM

I have been reading it and I still don't understand. I just know that things that were working for me no longer do and I do now know how to find the information you are telling me is available to me.

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 8:53 AM

Your best bet is to make a separate post with links to the horses you have questions about and someone can walk you through the process.

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 9:01 AM

It is done, with examples of the problem I'm having

Cleverwolf · Oct 27, 2023 10:30 AM

I have read this, I have posted and asked people I know, I have experimented. I cannot understand how this is supposed to work and how I'm supposed to use this last day of breeding season. I cannot get any foals to pass from my top stud despite trying a wide array. It doesn't seem to be PT, or era, or consistency.. Is it all up to chance? Are we just churning spelds into the market trying to decipher the change here? I really need a clear explanation somewhere and I really don't know where to find it.

Ammit · Oct 27, 2023 10:32 AM

You just needed to give me a chance to answer you there on the thread you made.

Members log in here:
Username:
Password:
By hitting the above you signify that you agree with our rules and conditions.
Forgot your password?

HGG Community Forums

Join our discord server!

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Who's Online (1)

Join our discord server!

Enlarge Your Pastures

Reminders!

Vacation GT Sale!