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Ammit · Apr 19, 2024 9:43 AM

First, let me apologize that I just don't have the time or ability to make a long explanation post. This is a week from hell and this is all I have in me today. Wanted to post sooner for more time to discuss.

The problem: The leaderboard gives free GMTs, GMTs pay for maxing, maxing gives you a better shot at the leaderboard winning you more GMTs, causing the biggest barns to squeeze the smaller barns off the LB. It's not terrible at the moment and is a slow trend, but I have been watching things going the wrong way for a while and it's time to make sure we don't go all billionaire class around here and squeeze out small accounts.

This is not about boosting, boosting and maxing are not the same thing.

To prevent a runaway consolidation of LB awards I will be changing the price of Ability Maxing from GMTs to the equivalent cost in IVs. This means being on the LB would no longer give you free maxing.

I had another option enter my brain today. Instead of changing the currency, I could instead just limit every account to X number of Ability Max Outs per season. I don't care if people can earn free maxing out. I think if you play smart that is a great reward, but I just want to make sure lots of people get rewards not just a few people. Option two would spread out the GMT awards between more players.

Both are ways to limit the very powerful "Max Out Ability" feature. One soft limits it by price, and the other hard limits it by count per season. Let me know which you would rather see. If option 2 how many per season is fair? I think 4 or 5 personally but let me know what you think.

Option 1: No limits. Everyone pays with IVs.

Option 2: Everyone pays with GMTs (that you can win from the boards), but everyone is limited meaning they have to focus and can't take over lots of boards at once. How many is fair?

-Read the entire thread before posting. A third option has been proposed.

I don't care which way we go personally as long as the LBs remain competitive. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

RKO · Apr 19, 2024 10:43 AM

Option 2 seems good and limit it to 2 LBs. but I am good with what ever you wish to do Ammit. Thank you for making a very cool horse related game.

Ammit · Apr 19, 2024 11:05 AM

How many max out per season would two leaderboards be?

RKO · Apr 19, 2024 12:19 PM

@Ammit I am not sure - would it be for the whole season/month or for each BL? If it is for per LB than maybe one for each board. If it is for the Season than yes 2 total would be nice, one for the overall point horse and one for the 2nd place over all points.

Ammit · Apr 19, 2024 12:51 PM

It's per horse. Not per leaderboard. The question is how many times a season should a user be allowed to max a horse.

Cavalynn · Apr 19, 2024 1:40 PM

I like option 1 best. I do a lot of maxing for my fun color projects, especially when I get an idea to branch off a new line. Sometimes I'll go through my show horses to look for particular genotypes to unalter and max so I can start a new color-based line from them. I like being able to max as many as I can afford then because it's just for fun. I don't want to have to feel like I need to be strategic then. It's my relief from purely strategic leaderboard breeding.

Option 2 could be okay by me if there was a slight change: Cap the amount of maxing with GMTs per season (4 sounds reasonable) and then it goes to the IV cost after that. I'd even be okay with the cost of IV maxing being a little more than the equivalent in GMTs. I just don't want to have to think so hard and evaluate very similar horses and pick and chose when I'm maxing my color lines. I want to be able to be impulsive about it and max dozens if I want to.

annismyrph · Apr 19, 2024 1:46 PM

I Dont boost or max much ; I prefer to get on the boards the old fashioned way lol , which might be why I am not on the boards very much. I think a max of 4 per month is a good number, that way people who can't afford to max out upteen horses every month get a shot at being on the leaderboards.

Ammit · Apr 19, 2024 4:35 PM

Switching from GMT to IVs will take me about 30 minutes to implement. Writing a system that limits what you can buy with GMTs and then kicks in an entire secondary system using a different currency is probably a two-day job. Realistically I am not able to do that right now. It's not a viable option.

Humboldt · Apr 19, 2024 4:36 PM

I prefer option 1. I don't breed for leaderboard but I use maxing on my embryos so I can get a guaranteed 2nd gen A/Blue foal. I don't have to breed 10 times to get the good foal. I also will do it on a cross I really like out of the pastures. It varies how much I use maxing depending on how much embryos I'm doing. Sometimes 10 times a season. I don't have many horses sitting on the boards, mostly the collectibles and Rainbow Riot 2 and neither of those lines have maxed horses. Just a lot of Best In Pastures.

Soliloquy · Apr 19, 2024 5:08 PM

Coming from one of the smaller stables, I think I prefer Option 1 as well. I can't afford to max out very often currently, but I mostly use it when a foal I really like gets gelded or spayed. I would prefer there not be a limit, even if I could never realistically reach it with my current stable payout and GMT earning capabilities. Switching to IVs would actually help me max out more often since GMTs are a much more restricted currency. Instead of choosing to spend my GMTs on making horses pretty or better performing, my choice would instead be a general quality over quantity (more barns or better performing horses) decision since I usually spend my IVs on space. I'd prefer making this choice since it seems more logic based instead of having to choose between logic and creativity. I hope this makes sense.

Fiddler · Apr 19, 2024 5:19 PM

I think 4 or 5 maxes a season is reasonable, and I could live with it.
I also think 2 leaderboards is reasonable, not counting futurity. If you limited futurity it would not survive yet.
However, that sounds like a very complicated fix.

Ammit · Apr 19, 2024 5:30 PM

"I also think 2 leaderboards is reasonable,"
To be clear this is not a thing. There is no limiting by leaderboards. Only by the number of times, maxing can be used.

Vella · Apr 19, 2024 7:30 PM

I think I'd personally prefer the first option - I don't max many horses out, and I don't chase leaderboards at all, but it just seems like it fits naturally with the overall premise of "build your show string to build your spending money, which lets you do all the fun things." To me, that's always been the core of everything - with a nice daily payout, I can manage most things I could possibly want, so making sure I have the show-babies is the easy answer to "but how do I have more fun?" So I guess to me, it just seems like switching the cost to IVs is the more-natural direction to go.

OopsDotCom · Apr 19, 2024 8:47 PM

I'm not understanding. If winning gmts is a problem, why don't you payout the winners in hb or iv's but they have to buy (with cash or iv's) gmts? Or does this lead to the same problem?

(no I'm not voting on one or the other. I'm trying to understand.

bluchrystals · Apr 19, 2024 10:03 PM

I believe I'd prefer option one as I enjoy maxing many horses during a season. The prettiest horses from my lines are always snipped. I don't chase leaderboards though so I don't have a horse in that race.
Edited: sorry, Ammit. Wrong word. I did mean maxing.

Ammit · Apr 20, 2024 2:16 AM

This is not about boosting. :)

Brandybrookes · Apr 20, 2024 3:48 AM

I like option 1 as well. I like to use max out for the horses I breed in the lab as majority of them come out worse than parent from horses I did alot of gmt work on. I'm trying to build a big enough herd per generation so I can eventually place them in pastures. Maxing out has helped me achieve getting supirior foals while boosting is still far out of my reach cost wise per horse.

I think switching it to iv will give players the opportunity to buy them for there breeding goals or help boost a foal that they like that wouldnt have otherwise passed. Then the gmts won can go towards more fun creating.

Limiting max outs per season I feel will hurt those who breed multiple lines a season and those who can't quite afford to boost but can afford to max. And make it harder for players to get multiple supirior foals from gmt parents that they breed through the lab . If they only breed for A/B papers or supirior foals.

Ammit · Apr 20, 2024 4:02 AM

Brandybrookes are you aware you can already buy them with IVs? If budget is the concern for you it sounds like switching to IVs would hurt you a good deal.

Ammit · Apr 20, 2024 5:01 AM

Something that could be done is having the limit to maxing only apply to the primary era and later era horses. All earlier eras (like 0 1, 2, etc) could still max without restriction. It is only the recent eras leaderboards that are significantly impacted by maxing in a way that squeezes out newer barns and the early eras are the ones that should most be made accessible to smaller barns.

I am not interested in preventing all maxing for early eras (then those with the most pasture space would just take the win.) My goal is to make members focus their recent era lb efforts but not to stop maxing out having an impact.

My suggestion would be a limit of 4 max outs per season per account, for horses in the primary era and more recent. Any era after the primary era should have already hit cap anyway and maxing no longer has a competitive edge and becomes just for fun.

Starstruck2 · Apr 20, 2024 6:46 AM

I don't max horses for the LBs, I tend to max later lines when I have a pretty horse that doesn't quite meet my breeding standards LOL.
I would prefer to go to IVs and skip the step of buying GMT tokens anyway :))

I would hate to limit my whole herd for a month but a limit on the more recent eras seems fair

Brandybrookes · Apr 20, 2024 7:34 AM

I remember what it was like to be a new smaller barn . I couldnt get on any of the boards for a long long time. I focused on building more pastures and stalls for awhile then I figured out my first selective breeding strategy with my era 8 horses. It is truly hard to compete with the bigger barns but it can be done with time and paitence. I still have alot to go. :)

I think it's fair limiting 4 for the newest eras . Is there a way to possibly make it so the newest era comming out can be accessed by new members for the first month? Giving them a chance to get a head start?

Ammit, yes I have been buying ivs and converting them to gmts to buy the max out . The 5%boosts I try not to buy through iv till my horses are at the threshold. I unfortunately sit in the middle where I can afford the ivs for the max outs for the horses each line that I choose but not the 5%boosts yet.

Fiddler · Apr 20, 2024 9:50 AM

I'm not converting my IVs right now, since I'm uncertain as to how it's going down.

Cavalynn · Apr 20, 2024 9:52 AM

I love the idea of imposing limits just on primary and newer eras. I didn't realize that was feasible. After reading the discussion on Forest, I think that would be the best to actually solve the problem without having to sacrifice the maxing that isn't for competition and just for fun. Because when I thought more about it, what players are saying over on Forest is true, only switching the currency and not having a limit will hurt those players that are just starting to have their hard work pay off on the leaderboard and are using those GMTs to reinvest in their lines, but it won't slow down the big barns that can afford maxing anyway because of their daily show bonus.

Brandybrookes · Apr 20, 2024 10:27 AM

Cavalynn that is a good point. It seems to affect the players who are starting to have their hard work pay off but not so much of the bigger barns who have the hbs to buy max out and been on the leader boards in most areas.

MackZ · Apr 20, 2024 11:41 AM

As a larger stable, I can afford the cost of maxing, but I never use it to chase leaderboards. I max the foals that would best fit my color lines so that I have a benchmark for testing. I also max the ones that fail my quality requirements but hit my color goals, though I usually end up waiting to do so until they reach breeding age.
At this point, the only leaderboard I chase is the backwards breeding board, which would not be helped by maxing.
It sounds to me like the best option would be to impose maxing limits on the recent and primary era clubs while leaving it open for the older eras. That seems fair, especially for the smaller stables who might be chasing the recent era boards.

BarnRaised · Apr 20, 2024 5:44 PM

I feel like option one may still pertain to larger accounts if they average a 320,000hbs daily payout or more, they may still be able to top the leader boards leaving less space for others. 320,000 is where I'm at and if that were the case I'd be able to max out a horse every 2 days. If I had horses that average 14.30pt+ and maxed them (which is what I'm seeing lately with bigger barns that can clone and boost clones surpassing 14.00pt consistently just from birth without the maxing) then it would still allow the bigger barns to snag all the gmts because pt scores are rising and averaging out of the 14.00- 14.30pt range and more in the 14.40-15pt range.

I have been struggling for about a year to get on the LB consistently and when I finally get to it my pt scores don't matter because bigger barns are still able to top it within a couple days by merely maxing a horse with the already numerous gmts they've won from maxing the seasons prior. I'm even a bigger barn with practical breeding practices and it's still an ongoing thing where my average pt scores from good producers still cannot beat the maxing trend.

Smaller barns who can't clone and get pt scores up fast enough will still be out of luck, as well as even smaller barns who can't even begin to get the 625,000hbs needed for one horse multiple times a month to max out.

Ammit · Apr 20, 2024 6:25 PM

BarnRaised I think you may not have read the entire thread and are behind.

Also, I believe you are talking about boosted horses not maxed horses given the PT numbers you listed. :)

Cherobird · Apr 20, 2024 7:10 PM

I think limiting the amount of horses per acct for maxing is reasonable. Big accounts can still convert IVs just as fast as they could in gmt by using their hbs, in my experience as a medium to large size barn. It can still be easy to bump smaller barns off the list with IVs, you're just not using the free gmts to do it. Thanks for letting us have input as always, ammit :x

bluchrystals · Apr 20, 2024 10:22 PM

I honestly don't care to hit the leaderboards. I only max to be able to use the nicely colored horses that get snipped. I normally max at least three horses a season, but I've maxed up to 8 total before because I run four different lines. Is there any way to just keep maxed horses from hitting leaderboards at all?

Ammit · Apr 21, 2024 3:43 AM

Going to ask people to please read the whole thread. There is really important conversation above. Thank you so much

Brandybrookes · Apr 21, 2024 5:03 AM

Ammit, I have a question.

The current lines that I have I seperate by eras "it makes it easier for me to keep them sorted" the eras I currently have that are in the area to be limited are 14 , 15, and 16. I use the lab to create the embryos "often 10-15 per line" and try to have 2 stallions and 4 mares per line for the next breeding season. Would there be a way to take some of my lines out of the era club and that way still be able to max the foals I plan to use if they don't already test supirior and it not being part of the limit? I just hate to see the lines I've been working on dwindle in numbers to get quality. Then it helps the smaller barns if I didnt have some of my lines competing with theirs.

BarnRaised · Apr 21, 2024 5:16 AM

Yeah maxing plus boosted at the same time is what I'm meaning and yes there were a lot of posts so I did not read all of it lol

Ammit · Apr 21, 2024 5:17 AM

Brandybrookes - I really appreciate you reading the whole thread. It helps me out a ton.

There really is no way to do that, unfortunately. Ony way would be to not have them be part of the younger eras. Since you are winning GMTs in those eras, that's kind of the system working as intended. Only way around it would be to move the line to an earlier era.

SharayahStables · Apr 21, 2024 7:12 AM

I just read the entire thread and still like option 1 the best. I have a large barn but don’t make the LB much or futurity compared to some players who dominate. I think IV purchase levels the playing field.

Herzeloyde · Apr 22, 2024 5:48 PM

+1 for option 1

Vella · Apr 23, 2024 5:01 AM

There were a lot of good points about how switching to IVs doesn't really help give smaller/newer barns a fighting chance, since bigger/more-established barns can just buy a pile of IVs. I didn't really consider the part where the whole point was that the boards are getting lopsided, so I like option three the best for that purpose!

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