HGG Community Forums

CheshireFarms · Jun 23, 2024 9:45 AM

I wanted to do an experiment with Cloning basic horses in order to get on the Limited Era Boards. The first time I did it, It worked extremely well, giving me leadership in Top Producing Stallion, Mare, and Highest PT. Potentially earning me Trophies and 9+ GMTs.

But during that first experiment I made a couple of mistakes, and didn't record my information. So here is my second experiment, and the break down of steps and costs. I wanted everyone to have access to this information, so I thought I'd post it in the Forum, and update the next show season.

Please provide any feedback or suggestions, and I can even turn this into a Wiki across the servers.

Making The Horses

-$5,000 to make 2 Perfect Foundation Horses
-$200 for Genetic Testing on 2 horses
-$1,000 for Performance Testing on 2 horses
-$2,000 for Breeding Inspection on 2 horses
-----------
Subtotal -$8,200 hbs

Prepping The Horses

Junes Lover (Foundation Sire) - C/9.90pt
Remove any genes that increase cloning cost.
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to remove Halo
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Junes Concert (Foundation Dam) - Yellow/9.90pt
Remove any genes that increase cloning cost.
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to remove Halo
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing
-----------
Subtotal 4 GMTs and -$1,000 hbs or -$501,000 hbs

Breeding The Horses

I use the Advanced Breeding Labs to create as many foals as I can. Foals created this way get a small Pasture Bonus. I do it this way because having multiple foals to choose from is better than putting all your plans on 1 foal.

-$30,000 hbs to Mass Egg Flush the Mare (she made 10 eggs)
-$5,000 hbs to Collect 10 Straws from Stallion
-$20,000 hbs to Create 10 Embryos
-$40,000 hbs to Implant 10 Embryos
-----------
Subtotal -$95,000 hbs

Prepping The Foals

Use Breeding Advice/Strict Breeding Advice to weed out any horses that don't pass. I had 4 out of 10 horses pass.

-$400 for Genetic Testing on 4 horses
-$2,000 for Performance Testing on 4 horses
-$4,000 for Breeding Inspection on 4 horses
-$16,000 for Comparison Testing 4 horses (discount for Premium Upgrades)
-----------
Subtotal -$22,400 hbs

Results So Far

3 fillies tested Superior to Dam
Junes Soy - Red/9.70 pt
Junes Grape - Red 9.90 pt
Junes Session - Red/10.10 pt

Take your best foal, in this case it is Junes Session, and prepare them for cloning.

Preparing For Cloning

-50 IVs (-$625,000 hbs) to Max Out Foal (now 10.30 pt)
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10.50 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Not all foals need Maxing, but you can still try to max them. If they don't need it, the game will tell you they are already as max potential and will not charge you.
-----------
Subtotal 50 IVs, 1 GMT & -$500 hbs or -$750,500 hbs

Clone The Best Foal

1 IV for the 1st Clone
2 IVs
3 IVs
4 IVs
5 IVs
6 IVs
7 IVs
8 IVs
9 IVs for the 9th Clone
-----------
Subtotal 45 IVs or -$562,500 hbs

Preparing The 9 Clones

Use Breeding Advice/Strict Breeding Advice to weed out any horses that don't pass. All the Clones passed.

-$900 for Genetic Testing on 9 horses
-$4,500 for Performance Testing on 9 horses
-$9,000 for Breeding Inspection on 9 horses
-----------
Subtotal -$14,400 hbs

Preparing The Next Generation

Of the 9 foals cloned, all had higher PT than Junes Session. I took the Top 4 Clones with Highest PT. They should all be Superior to their Parents since the Foal they were cloned from was Superior. Foals are also already at Max Ability.

Junes Cardiac C1 is Red/10.70 pt
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make a Stallion
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10.80 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Junes Guild C1 is Red/10.60 pt
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (no PT change)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Junes Brings C1 is Red/10.60 pt
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (no PT change)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Junes Movement C1 is Red/10.60 pt
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10.70 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Making a horse Perfectly Consistent doesn't always mean their PT will change, as you can see here. I wanted to try and improve a Stallion and Mare for when they are old enough to breed. Junes Cardiac C1 and Junes Movement C1 will be used to breed the next generation of horses.
-----------
Subtotal 5 GMTs and -$2,000 or -$627,000 hbs

My Total Investment

10 GTMs
95 IVs
$143,500 hbs

or

-$2,581,000 hbs all together

Final Thoughts

The potential payout on the boards is about half of the initial investment. Only time will tell the over all rewards, and if more resources will need to be invested to maintain my position. It appears without competition, you can easily block all spaces which payout GMTs.

CheshireFarms · Jun 23, 2024 11:00 AM

I did a 3rd experiment to see if I can reduce costs and get the same results.

Making The Horses

-$5,000 to make 2 Perfect Foundation Horses
-$200 for Genetic Testing on 2 horses
-$1,000 for Performance Testing on 2 horses
-$2,000 for Breeding Inspection on 2 horses
-----------
Subtotal -$8,200 hbs

Prepping The Horses

Junes Away (Foundation Sire) - C/9.90pt
Didn't have any genes to remove
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Junes Ellen (Foundation Dam) - Yellow/9.90pt
Didn't have any genes to remove
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing
-----------
Subtotal 2 GMTs and -$1,000 hbs or -$251,000 hbs
Reduced cost by $250,000 by finding horses without special genes.

Breeding The Horses

-$1,000 hbs to live cover 1 mare
-----------
Subtotal -$1,000 hbs
Reduced cost by $94,000 by finding horses without special genes.

Prepping The Foal

This section changed the most when compared to the experiment above. Make sure you Max Out first before doing BA or SBA. Or else you'd have to ungeld/unspay your horse if they don't pass, and then Max.

-50 IVs (-$625,000 hbs) to Max Out Foal
-$100 for Genetic Testing
-$500 for Performance Testing
-$1,000 for Breeding Inspection
-$4,000 for Comparison Testing (discount for Premium Upgrades)
-----------
Subtotal 50 IVs and -$5,600 hbs or -$630,600 hbs
Increased cost by $608,200.

Results So Far

1 filly tested Superior to Dam
Junes Jewel - Red/10.20 pt

Preparing For Cloning

-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10.50 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

We maxed in the previous step instead of this step.
-----------
Subtotal 1 GMT & -$500 hbs or -$125,500 hbs
Reduced costs by $625,000.

Clone The Foal

1 IV for the 1st Clone
2 IVs
3 IVs
4 IVs
5 IVs
6 IVs
7 IVs
8 IVs
9 IVs for the 9th Clone
-----------
Subtotal 45 IVs or -$562,500 hbs
Price does not change

Preparing The 9 Clones

Use Breeding Advice/Strict Breeding Advice to weed out any horses that don't pass. All the Clones passed.

-$900 for Genetic Testing on 9 horses
-$4,500 for Performance Testing on 9 horses
-$9,000 for Breeding Inspection on 9 horses
-----------
Subtotal -$14,400 hbs
Price does not change

Preparing The Next Generation

Of the 9 foals cloned, only 2 had higher PT than Junes Jewel. I took the Top 2 Clones with Highest PT. They should all be Superior to their Parents since the Foal they were cloned from was Superior. Foals are also already at Max Ability.

Junes Flipped C1 is Red/10.70 pt
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make a Stallion
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10.80 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

Junes Debt C1 is Red/10.60 pt
-1 GMT (-$125,000 hbs) to make Perfectly Consistent (now 10.70 pt)
-$500 for Performance Re-Testing

I didn't test any of the other clones since they had lower PT. Making Perfect Consistency doesn't always increase PT.
-----------
Subtotal 3 GMTs and -$1,000 or -$375,000 hbs
Reduced cost by $252,000.

My Total Investment

6 GTMs (reduced by 4)
95 IVs (stayed the same)
$29,200 hbs

or

-$1,966,700 hbs all together (reduced by $614,300)

Final Thoughts

You save a little more resources in this method, but I didn't feel like the foals produced were worth it. I liked being able to pick out the best foal after doing a Mass Egg Flush and Embryo Transfer. Verses just having 1 foal to put your plan into motion. This did still get me the results I wanted, and the Sire, Dam and Foals all placed at the top of their LBs.

Ammit · Jun 23, 2024 11:47 AM

I love seeing experiments like this!

Fiddler · Jun 23, 2024 11:51 AM

After you cloned the filly, why didn't you max them again?
Thanks for taking notes, very interesting

CheshireFarms · Jun 23, 2024 12:20 PM

@Fiddler they were already at max. So I did go through the process of trying to max them, but the game was like "This horse is already the maximum possible ability."

CheshireFarms · Jun 23, 2024 12:50 PM

Rinse and Repeat

Fiddler · Jun 23, 2024 2:33 PM

Oh interesting

CheshireFarms · Jun 23, 2024 3:48 PM

I wrote up an Article in the Wiki if anyone was interested https://wiki.huntandjump.com/books/eras-clubs-leaderboards/page/cloning-for-the-limited-era-clubs

OopsDotCom · Jun 23, 2024 11:36 PM

Does the LB pay out enough to make it worthwhile financially?

CheshireFarms · Jun 24, 2024 2:54 AM

@OopsDotCom initially, absolutely not lol. I'm not sure on the long term gain as the foals I bred won't be ready until September. And I won't know about the parents placement until next month. If you read the article at the bottom you'll see more information on costs.

Ammit · Jun 24, 2024 3:08 AM

You can end up making a TON of GMTs if you produce a competitive line and are able to dominate an era and then boost into the earlier era once you hit cap but it is a slow and expensive build-up. Takes a real-life year.

CheshireFarms · Jun 24, 2024 10:50 AM

Yeah but it's how I produce it I'm not sure about.

I won't be able to breed the offspring until September, which means the only adults I have in the board are the Foundations that are Yellow/C 9.9pt.

If I want them to stay in the lead, I'd have to breed/max/clone again, putting me further in the hole.

Unless they passively win me GMTs I'm always going to be in the negative.

I had to do 3 different experiments to take all GMT awarding spots, spending over $7,128,700. Even with 18 GMTs, I'm still negative $4,878,700.

It's an interesting method but I don't think it's viable, and it's not open to everyone as an option so unless someone decides they have excess money to spend, there isn't anything to stop me from just taking over the current era (never giving new accounts a shot). I also wanted to see if I could do the same with with Era 16, but not sure yet.

We'll see next month what the board looks like without me doing anything, and then again in September when the foals are old enough to breed.

Cavalynn · Jun 24, 2024 10:59 AM

When the era you're doing this in becomes the primary era you win a lot more GMTs.

CheshireFarms · Jun 24, 2024 11:10 AM

@Cavalynn it might be more viable with the next gen, or even the grandkids. Maybe by that point I don't have to max and give them perfect consistency. But at some point they will be caped. It's definitely going to be an on going experiment. I mean, I'm this far invested, what's another 10 mill lol.

CheshireFarms · Jun 24, 2024 5:37 PM

So I did another experiment, wanted to see if it would change anything.

I made 2 Ex Perfect foundations, which makes them Era 16. I followed the same steps of giving them perfect consistency, breeding, maxing the top foal, giving that foal perfect consistency, and then cloning them 9 times.

Going in I knew I wouldn't be able to get on the PT boards, but wasn't sure about the Top Producer boards since the foals were all very good.

Not a single horse in this experiment made it to the Era 16 boards.

Lesson here is if you are going to do this, it needs to be done as soon as a new Era starts.

The previous era is 4 generations ahead in this case, already at Star Papers, and the top PT is 12.7.

I was able to take a Foundation Red/10.40 and get a 1 generation Blue/11.2 out of it......which is a whole lot of work considering I've bred 11-11.10 naturally with just using the pasture bonus.

Cavalynn · Jun 24, 2024 5:50 PM

Lesson here is if you are going to do this, it needs to be done as soon as a new Era starts.

That's always true for era leaderboards, no matter your strategy and methods.

Kintara · Jun 24, 2024 6:19 PM

I think you can definitely make a heap of gmts doing this, if you are the only one doing it, but you only need one or two others to do the same thing and then it will come down who gets in there first/random chance etc. It also pushes out everyone else that isn't doing it, which means less people will end up aiming for the LBs? Definitely worth doing if you have a heap of HBs to throw at it though, as you don't know ahead of time if anyone else is doing it or not. I mean however it is set up, those with either time and/or money/resources are going to work out how to maximise their chances for these things, and can certainly be fun trying to get there

Ammit · Jun 24, 2024 8:35 PM

It's interesting that this is just starting the enter the broader conversation here when it is well-established (on other servers at least) that the race to the primary era IS about maxing every generation. If you are not doing that you are not going to win.

And yes expros are 6 months behind and catch the earlier era. It's why boosting has zero impact on the limited eras. The era penalty is too powerful. Low-generation breeding allows you to get significantly more progress than a 5% boost does.

Ammit · Jun 24, 2024 8:40 PM

" I mean however it is set up, those with either time and/or money/resources are going to work out how to maximise their chances for these things..."

This is so deeply true.

Without maxing the strategy shifts to using as many mares with 30-day pasture bonuses as possible. Pastures require USD so while the argument can be made is it better for it to be about who has the most pastures or who can max the most, it is 100% fact that maxing is at least accessible to those who can't invest USD in the game.

It's a pick-your-poison situation.

CheshireFarms · Jul 7, 2024 1:01 PM

Junes Results

-$7,128,700 cost
+$2,250,000 earn (from 18 GMT)
-----------------------------
-$4,878,700 profit loss

Julys Breeding Cost

-$1,649,000 x 2 Breedings = -$3,298,000

A couple of things to note here is:
1) I actually spent more than this because of how I bred, but I based the breeding cost off of least expensive experiment.

2) Once you do this the first time, your cost reduces by $317,700 because you already have all the foundation work in place.

3) I did 2 breedings with the intention of trying to secure the Top 3 PT spots, but based on the boards current standings, it looks like I will need to do 3 breedings to insure my Studs and Dams stay in the top 3.

Working on charts to predict patterns and expenses.

One pattern I did notice while breeding, is colts tend to be .10 better in PT than the fillies do

CheshireFarms · Jul 7, 2024 4:14 PM

*Edited images to remove December

A couple of things to note:

Playing the boards is a numbers game. The more high placing horses you have on it, the less likely you are to be bumped from a GMT awarding spot. That said, it's why I do 3 Breeding Programs vs. 1. 3 programs give me 3 sires, 3 dams and at least 30 foals to get the highest possible PT from. This would hopefully earn me the Top 3 spots in the 3 Breeding Categories on the board.
With mares now able to Flush Eggs at age 3, there is the possibility to breed 4 generations before the Era Change Over. However this comes with an increase cost of at least $36,500 if breeding 1 foal, and $95,000 if breeding 10. This ability is also not available unless you have a premium account.
There might be a possibility that as my Generations get older, it might be easier to obtain high PT foals. Which means I could invest less resources in having to max and increase their PT. Only time will tell if this is the case. It also depends on the competition I am facing form other breeders. If their stock continues to grow at the same rate, I might have to continue to invest in Maxing, Cloning, and Consistency.
If I continue at this rate with 3 Breeding Groups, I would have spent over -$29,000,000 hbs, and finish with a loss of over -$16,000,000.
If I only invested in 1 Breeding Group, I would severely reduce my GMT intake from 18 to 12, and have a higher change of being bumped down from competition.
Going to 1 Breeding Group, I would need to increase my monthly cost by $125,500 to evaluate the top 3 Clones for the PT board instead of the top 2.
Going forward I will probably use the 1 Breeding Group model. Finances become harder to predict because at some point the horses will hit Cap, and as the game years go on, I'm more likely to be bumped down.

CheshireFarms · Jul 7, 2024 6:09 PM

You must place 1st in Top Producing Stallion, 1st in Top Producing Mare, and the Top 3 Spots for Highest PT Of the Year. You would earn 12 gmts a month, and after 12 real months you would be -$3,794,200 hbs.

Exp04

If you continued your winning streak, and placed 1st in Top Producing Stallion, 1st in Top Producing Mare, and the Top 5 Spots for Highest PT Of the Year during the 2 Primary Eras, you could earn $12,192,800 hbs. This is a 24 real month investment.

There are a few problem with this projection:

You will never win everything.
At this point your competition is also breeding 6-7 generations.
Somewhere around 8 Generations you will experience a Breed Cap, and at that point I'm not sure how your winnings will look. Chances are this is where you start seeing a reduction in won GMTs.

This projection shows you having won everything during the Limited Eras, and won an average during the Primary Eras. After a 24 month investment, you will still be -$2,588,200 hbs.

Exp06

It is more likely you will see an average gain across 2 Limited Eras and 2 Primary Eras. After 24 real months, you would have spent -$43,088,200 hbs, won $37,500,000 hbs (in GMTs) and still be -$5,588,200 hbs over all.

My take away from this:

Even if you go with the lowest costing breeding program, you wont even break even.
This is very much a game of wealth, where the most wealthy have the upper hand because they have the resources to spend on IVs, and can use their GMT's won instead of converting their HBs to GMTs.
Boosting and Cloning push out new players from competing in breeding categories on the board.
New players are at an extreme disadvantage of competing on the boards because they do not make enough money daily (you'd need on average to set aside $60k a day to afford this), they may not have access to premium account features, most importantly they don't understand how the boards work.

I'd like to keep up with this project, but honestly, it's extremely foolish to continue to invest in it. Even with me making on average $500k a day. It's a time consuming and resource consuming project, and I'd rather invest my limited time in the game another way.

What I'm not understanding is where this is actually profitable? When I asked this question before, it was mentioned in the Primary Eras you earn more. But it's more likely that you will start to average out, assuming your competition grows with you, and eventually you will level out.

Ammit · Jul 7, 2024 8:14 PM

One pattern I did notice while breeding, is colts tend to be .10 better in PT than the fillies do

Not something that is actually part of the game. Maybe just a coincidence with your sample size.

Your math is also way off because you did not and can not account for the number of show horses and show income that can be generated. (Plus GMTs won from the points categories) As always in this game, show horses are what make you the most money. You use this high powered horses to make huge numbers of show horses for that era.

This is not the sort of thing you can throw two months at all call that a valid test. I did it for 2 years. My account made stupid amounts of money. ;) I started out making hbs using my era zero herd and eventually got rid of everything except the era I had been chasing was still making a solid 350k a day just from that one era alone. It could have been more started winding down my breeding numbers.

Also note you don't need to spend that much every month it's a waste to do so. You only need to things full price on the years you have a new generation coming up. In the off months use your strong breeders to produce a pile of show horses.

Ammit · Jul 7, 2024 8:32 PM

I will say this about LB chasing. It's mostly a vanity metric. No shame in that but ya, they are there for accounts with a lot of money to have something to play around with. That has always and will always be true with this game and any other game/sport.

Ammit · Jul 7, 2024 8:45 PM

Hmm, another thing I am noticing you did not properly account for. When done correctly there is no reason to keep doing this past generation 7. Once there you hit the breeding cap and no amount of maxing will stop other breeders from catching up.

At that point, you can add a 5% boost, clone, and add another 5% boost to have the top breeding horses in the two eras before the one you are working on. Once you have those you can just coast easy and rake in the GMTs from those eras. And you don't need to do expensive breeding practices to dominate those eras because with stock that is 5% or more superior to the rest of the board just breeding anything is enough to win you gmts.

Ammit · Jul 7, 2024 8:56 PM

And just another note to add, imagine all of this but the maxing was free instead of paid for. That drastically changes the math. (And explains why I changed the currency on it)

You don't have your costs broken out by line item, so I am not sure how many foals you are maxing for each year, but maxing must make up the majority of your costs listed here.

CheshireFarms · Jul 8, 2024 7:16 AM

I was only look at the 3 breeding categories because I thought the show categories were all random? If I do start getting GMTs from that I can track that..it would probably be harder to track money.

"You only need to things full price on the years you have a new generation coming up"

You wouldn't want to do it every year? It might not matter for Top Breeding horse since you'd already have really good foals from the first cloning, but it would matter for Top PT.

"At that point, you can add a 5% boost, clone, and add another 5% boost to have the top breeding horses in the two eras before the one you are working on."

I can modify that, and once I get there I could do that and see what changes. There would be a little lag at that until they could breed. Then I'd have to see what it would look like with 10 foals on the board.

I'll do better chart showing the cost break down. I basically was following my 3rd experiment example of just breeding one foal, maxing that one, cloning 9 times, and taking the top 2 to breed when mature. Maxing and GMT modifications take up the most. GMT might not need to be used for Perfect Consistency, but it can make a .10 difference (not guaranteed). And then you'd need a GMT to change the gender on one clone to make a breeding pair.

Fiddler · Jul 8, 2024 2:42 PM

From a smaller farm's perspective, it kind of ruins the fun. But it's interesting to watch and see your process

CheshireFarms · Jul 8, 2024 4:47 PM

@Fiddler I totally understand. I was doing this in part to see if it was actually going to work, but also in part to show how it can easily be abused. Or at least in my opinion. Which is also why I publicly put everything out there.

I haven't decided if I'm going to continue it, or for how long. I'd like to make the changes Ammit mentioned and see what happens.

If it does turn out to be profitable, I'll roll it back into the community with some games and programs like I've done before. Specially now that we're open to new registration again.

Ammit · Jul 8, 2024 7:59 PM

Fiddler - what specifically do you feel is fun ruining?

Bluegrass is not open for registration. :) That was only a very short-time thing for June. This server still has too many mega barns making so many horses causing problems with database stability.

Fiddler · Jul 9, 2024 5:13 AM

I don't have much of a chance in era 17 because all the top spots are filled by clones.

ON another point,
I thought once a horse was maxed, it had the full potential from the parents. How do clones get even higher PT?

Ammit · Jul 9, 2024 5:21 AM

I agree that cloning can be problematic for the lbs. I think most players have not realized or understood the impact that can have on it.

Ammit · Jul 9, 2024 5:27 AM

It's also an issue because it disincentivizes having fancy genes when that is kind of the core of the game. So I really don't love that about it either.

It's too big a thing to change without community discussion, but so badly understood by most of the community that a discussion would be largely pointless, unfortunately.

CheshireFarms · Jul 9, 2024 5:14 PM

"Bluegrass is not open for registration."
Oh darnit LOL. I was starting to plan. Oh well back to the drawing board. I'll figure out something else to do for the community as a whole and not just new members then.

Exp07

Took me about two nights to chew on this, every time I went over it I realized I forgot something in the process. It was a good suggestion to break down costs, because I realized where I could have spent less money. Mostly in the egg flushing. I've been mass flushing instead of just flushing one egg.

You could choose not to use AI, but you'd only reduce the cost by $17k, and you would miss out on breeding an extra generation and going into the next era on your 4th Gen.

The other area I suspect I can reduce cost, is in using a GMT to give the horse perfect consistency. The reason I was doing this, was it might give the horse .10 in PT and with what I've experienced in the boards, .10 can make a difference in if you place in the Top 3 or not. I'm not sure how important this will be as the line gets older.

At the very end you'll see where I spend $376,500 to make 3 foals perfectly consistent. That's because I would be trying to place in the top 3 with 10 of the foals I made, so I would invest in the best 3. With the top 2 going to to breed when mature.

At the start of each new generation, you will need to invest a GMT to change the gender of one of your Top Clones, unless you have a different horse available.

With these prices, the projection may look like this:
Exp08

This is only if you win 12 GMTs from the program each year.

That isn't factoring in any possible GMTs/HBs awarded to show horses from this program. Every month you're breeding 1 foal, cloning it 9 times, and have 10 offspring to choose your next producers from. The top 2 become the next breeders, and the other 7 go on to show. Showing with foals is a slow game however. But I'll report on any foals that do earn GMTs from showing.

Fiddler · Jul 9, 2024 7:12 PM

How different are the clones from each other?

CheshireFarms · Jul 9, 2024 7:47 PM

CheshireFarms · Jul 9, 2024 7:54 PM

@Fiddler they have all been the same paper level, and passed all testing. But their PT ranged from 10.10 to 10.70 on a horse that started with 10.50. I haven't had anything worse than 10.10 on a clone yet (form a 10.50 horse), and haven't had anything better than 10.80.

I believe these clones were born with 10.80 and making consistent didn't bump him any higher.
https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=19380396
https://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=19379923

Ammit · Jul 9, 2024 8:47 PM

For me I think an ideal solution would be for clones to only swing down in training ability never up, with the exception for horses with boosted over cap parents. That way the people going for 15+ PTs can still do that but cloning is not unbeatable in newer eras. (And has a minor penalty because the expectation is that you are cloning maxed horses and that is super powerful.)

Ammit · Jul 9, 2024 8:58 PM

To elaborate:

Stallion A:
-Sire and Dam are both perfect foundations
-They produce 3 foals that are each maxed.
-Those foals are each cloned 9 times, bringing him to 30 foals.
-His 10 best foals count towards the LB. Some of those will be better than the maxed foals because of the training ability swing.

Stallion B:
-Stallion B is a perfect foundation he is bred to 500 perfect foundation mares.
- He has 500 foals, non are maxed but because he has so many foals more than 10 are equivalent to maxed foals.
-His 10 best foals are the same as 10 maxed foals.

Stallion A will always beat stallion B because A has some foals that are above max ability. Cloning always beats regular breeding and even maxing because that training ability score can swing up pushing the stallion with cloned foals ahead.

I think ideally cloning should be allowed but never give you a stallion score that you can't get by other means.

CheshireFarms · Jul 25, 2024 3:41 AM

If you guys haven't seen the update yet, there have been some changes to Limited Era LB Strategies. So this method of Max-Clone won't get the same results any more. There are also new avenues to produce foals for the LB.

https://www.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/61533/lb-impacting-changes-coming-to-embryo-breeding-cloning-and-pt-list-ordering

CheshireFarms · Jul 25, 2024 5:37 PM

I updated the Wiki article, and will try to do another experiment or two in August using the new changes. https://wiki.huntandjump.com/books/eras-clubs-leaderboards/page/cloning-for-the-limited-era-clubs

CheshireFarms · Aug 31, 2024 1:48 PM

So I never updated for the end of July, since we were still using the old method, as expected my horses took Top 3 Stallions, Top 2 Mares, and Top 3 PT.

For August I ended up flushing 9 eggs from Junes Blessed C1 F2 (Red/10.80), and fertilized them using Junes Puffin C1 F2 (B/10.80). I used the new AI program and picked 9 mares with 30+ days in pasture, giving them a 45 day bonus.

All 9 foals passed SBA and were A/Blue with PT ranging from 10.80-11.30.

Because Studs need 10 foals to get on the boards, I took the best foal August Packing F3 (A/11.30), maxed and made them perfectly consistent (A/11.40). I wanted to see how the new cloning system worked, so I cloned them 9 times. With papers all staying A, but PT ranged from 10.80-11.40 for a .60 swing, with only one being 11.40 and the next 11.20.

I kept the top 2, spayed/gelded the rest, and turned August Packing F3 into a mare.

The end of the year awards for 147 (August) show:
3rd Place Stallion - Junes Puffin C1 F2 (B/10.80)
1st Place Mare - Junes Blessed C1 F2 (Red/10.80)
7th Place PT - August Packing F3 (A/11.40)

New PT rules will take some getting used to, specially with cloning no longer giving better PT. All Top10 PT foals for this were were 11.40 PT.

As far as money/points earned form show horses. I'm not really seeing a return and we're 3 months into the program now. I have no foundation horses or 2nd gen horses on the boards, and only 1 3rd gen horse currently in 22nd place with 4 points.

I might continue this program and flush eggs from my top mares and breed them all to my top stallion for that generation. That seems to give better results based on effort vs. the more randomness of PT and showing.

Fiddler · Aug 31, 2024 2:53 PM

Yeah you spent a chunk of hbs to do this!

CheshireFarms · Aug 31, 2024 4:14 PM

@Fiddler right? LOL All to prove a system was broken lol. At least I could afford it.

paradoxphoenix · Aug 31, 2024 4:18 PM

I’ve bred for leaderboards since 7 was the newest era and I ended up there accidentally lol But I’ve noticed, with all my horses and all these eras, I really don’t hit the showing leaderboards much at all. It’s kind of a rarity. It almost seems like showing ability is a separate thing?

I’ve wanted to try to figure that out, but I have too much to handle with what I have already :))

CheshireFarms · Aug 31, 2024 4:47 PM

Same. I've been destroying the Dun Factor boards for months now, but my show horses rarely end up on there. I noticed it's like 1 month they are all on there, next month, barely anyone on there. I'm not sure how that all works at all.

Looking back at my awards history for Dun Factor Horses (the oldest line I have):
147 - no show horses on boards
146 - 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 for Lined Horses (I took everything but 5th)
145 - 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 for Lined Horses
144 - no show horses on boards
143 - 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 for Lined Horses (I took everything but 2nd and 7th)
142 - 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
141 - no show horses on boards
140 - 9th place for 2nd Gen Horse ; 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 for Lined Horses
139 - 10th place for 2nd Gen Horse ; 10th place for Lined Horses
138 - no show horses on boards
137 - 1, 2, 5 for Lined Horses
136 - no show horses on boards

That's a full 12 months of showing history, make it make sense LOL. Of those 12 months, I had Top Stallion for 6 months, and Top Mare for 12 months, and Top PT for 11 months. So I would think I'm producing horses that would show well. So I'm not sure what actually makes a good show string.

I have started to keep my foundation Dun Factor mares in a barn now, so they could start collecting points. I haven't had a foundation horse on the boards in ages because they have been in pastures breeding. But with the new surrogate program, that changes things.

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