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In this Discussion
- Ammit December 2024
- annismyrph December 2024
- Chiere December 2024
- Fiddler December 2024
- MackZ December 2024
- RedtailFoxFarm December 2024
- WhiteValley December 2024
Gold papered filly yelled on breeding suitability testing
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I bred her via pasture breeding. Did the basic tests, she got a 12.40 and consistent score and gold papers. Then I bought a premium subscription, did a whole barn advance breeding suitability test, and she was yelled!! I was super sad, she’s exactly what I wanted. Should I spend the resources and unalter her? Would you do so if she were yours?
Also, every other foal (about 20? 30?) in that crop was also gelded or yelled! Every single one. Including a Star papered colt, and every A and Blue baby. Not a one escaped being altered.
Did I do something wrong? Should I wait till foals are over two to test? What makes a consistent Star or Gold horse unsuitable for breeding?
I feel like a dummypants; I can’t figure this out and I’m pretty discouraged about it. I’ve played sporadically for years but I’m finally actually trying to improve my herds as opposed to just getting something cute, and being happy with that. I’ve taken to picking up only Gold and Star horses at auction, and putting them in rotation, selling yellow and lower horses, and leaving mares in pastures for over 30 days, etc. How do I breed up to Gold and Star if even those aren’t suitable for breeding? What do I actually need to be looking at numbers/papers wise? Thanks
The criminal in question…
19888470
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By "Yelled" do you mean Spayed? Also are you breeding similar papers? and have those horses been tested against their parents at the very least? you are really better off starting your own lines and working your way up to Gold/Star horses imo.. an altered foal is a perfect show horse.. so please dont send them to auction unless you simply dont have barn room. Once you get to a certain generation .. you ll find it Muc harder to get them to pass as the window to improve over their parents is smaller and smaller.. My 8th gen and up pastures I am happy if I get 1 or 2 foals to pass SBA out of 30 that I have bred with a 30+day pasture bunos on the mares.Thanked by 1Chiere
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I’m assuming you are talking about strict breeding advice — as far as I know a foal has to be superior to both parents in order to pass SBA. Since the sire is *Star that may be what’s causing the problem. It’s not that they’re not suitable for breeding, they’re just not superior to their *Star sireThanked by 1Chiere
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Thank you both for such great answers! It’s got me thinking.
Ok, in an effort for more better learning, lol, here’s more info; is it useful? I bought both sire and dam at auction, and don’t know if they were tested against their parents. But the Gold Stars are thick and heavy in their ancestry. Both are Era 0. Sire is 12.20 Star and Dam is 11.60 Blue. Both sire and dam have over 20 generations of horses behind them, (probably more than my own dorks out back,) about 80% stars and golds. I misspoke with saying the filly scored in at 12:40; she pulled a 12.20. Which is the same as her sire and better than her dam.
-Taking into account what was said about next gens becoming harder and harder to pass, is this possibly at play here?
-Is it a game of Averages? Example; the sire is 12.20 and the dam is 11.60. Even tho the filly is tested as 12.20 Gold, is she really only 11.90? Which would make her less than her sire.
-I like her, would it be ok to unalter her? Or would her future foals be worse than her dam? I would apply boosts, etc. But I don’t want to go backwards.
Yes, sorry, “yelled” is “spayed”. I’m an old farm girl, raised on an Appaloosa farm by a horse crazy woman with more than a few other horse crazy family members in her ancestry, and tend to use Real World breeders’ terms. I’m trying! I have to keep telling myself, ‘It’s only a game, it’s only a game!” Just remove ‘horse’ from that sentence about my mom and you’ll probably get a clearer image of my childhood, ha ha ha!
Thank you both for your help! -
I actually checked back on her Pedigree lol, she is Bootstrapped ( or un evenly bred ) with a Star Great-Grandfather and a Red Foundation mother.. which means the fillies from that cross usually test Superior to their mother as the * Star parent pulls them up.. most colts would fail testing on this cross as the red Damm would pull them down from the Star Sire..if you own the parents now you can Comp test them against their same sex parent and see what you get. When you "bootstrap" you are usually doing it to quickly build a show herd and most foals will Not pass SBA. I actually have a pasture for my bootstraps to ensure high quality show stock on a monthly basis. I do not usually test the fillies as I breed them back to my current BootStrap Stud to keep the influx of show horses coming. PT Score does Not equal Breedability.. There was a great article a couple of years ago by Confluence Stables about PT Scores..( some updates have been made that are not included in this article , but it might give you an idea of whats what :) ) JUst think about Zenyatta.. she was an AMAZING racehorse but has pretty much Failed as a broodmare when you are thinking about PT Score vs Breedability.
https://www.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/43811/pt-scores-showing-vs-breeding-a-bit-old-but-good-info#Item_7Thanked by 1Chiere -
You are amazing, thank you for the deep dive, and I am off to read your link!
Zenyatta is a great example. Maybe her grandbebbehs or great grands will make her proud. Look at Secretariat; his foals were duds at racing. But some of his grands were good, and his great grands, better. Turned out he had gifted them with that HUGE heart gene, but it was heterozygous and didn’t show until the third gen of line breeding.
Instead of unaltering her, what if I clone her and maxy boost the clone? Tho, I am willing to drop her as a broody all together and just show her if that’s what you recommend.
Another question; if I’m up for spending cash, should I concentrate on the stallions instead of the mares? I’m solidly a mare girl and in RL will never own a stud again or geldings, currently have all mares and none have babies for me, lol. Should I change my thots on whats suitable to upgrade?
Again, thank you so much! -
What has helped me understand the breeding scores is this: each paper level has a certain range of hidden number scores within them. For example, let's say the whole breeding score scale is numbers 1 through 10. The paper level tells you which section of that scale your horse falls into. 1-2 is C/Yellow, 2.01-4 is B/Red, 4.01-6 is A/Blue, 6.01-8 is *Star/*Gold, and 8.01-10 is **Star/**Gold. You have a stallion with a breeding score of 6.01, so his paper score is *Star; your mare has a breeding score of 7.99, so her paper score is *Gold. Their papers match, but they're on opposite ends of the range covered by their papers, so the potential foal quality they can each produce is a bit different. Let's say you breed them and get a foal with a breeding score of 7.5; that's in the same range, so the paper score will be the same as the parents. However, that foal is only better than one of its parents, not both. If you tested that foal with Strict Breeding Advice, which compares the foal's breeding score to that of both parents, it would fail.
This is where comparison testing comes in handy. It tells you if your foal is close to or better than their same gender parent, as well as how they compare to any other same gender horse you want to test them against, like a generation benchmark. Even if you don't care about even generation breeding, comp testing tells you which end of the paper score range your horse is at. When you only pair horses that are at the same end of the same paper level, you are more likely to get foals that pass all testing.Might be addicted to pixel ponies...
Licensed for mu, DFP2, SWM, ONX, TMJB, TMSG, PBP, PBC, PBW, VOID, CHN, PLT, DMSP, LACE, JLYF, PDL, ROS, BOU, ATM, WEB, CRT, HRT, SUN, STAR, SHM, all Axioms, all Ices.
ID 276208Thanked by 1Chiere -
Yelled?
Never heard that term.
If you don’t want to have a stud, just search for horses who do “AI”
You can search for size, color, age, even paper and PT level..
There’s lots to choose fromThanked by 1Chiere -
Zenyatta and Secretariat are great examples of how showing ability/PT score has no impact on a horse's breeding ability. You can have an absolutely fantastic show horse with a really high PT score, but they end up being horrible breeders. Transversely, you can have an amazing breeder that produces the most successful, high PT foals, but they themselves never amount to much of anything in competitions.
PT tells you approximately how old they'll be when they finish training, or at least that's what it seems to indicate, based on what I've observed in my own horses. Training increases horses' skills equally, so more training time means more skills, which leads to leveling off at a higher competition level.
Consistency primarily affects show scores. It has some impact on breeding, but I think that's just because of inheritability; inconsistent horses are more likely to throw inconsistent foals than are consistent horses. The testing messages about consistency relate it to temperament (i.e. "this horse is very inconsistent" means it has a very flighty temperament and is unsuitable for breeding).Post edited by MackZ at 2024-12-29 18:14:43 -
Fiddler, I meant RL studs, xD They are noisy and distracted. I’m fine with pixel studs. I can leave their page if they get too rude, lol
My mom always said that 60% of a foal comes from the mare and as a mare can only have one foal a year, she needs to be better than the stallion. And he needs to be the best money can buy. I know in general DNA is split about 50/50 tween parents, but the ovum also contributes some mtDNA. Is it 10%? No idea. But she was excellent at breeding exceptional horses using that formula.
All that to say, we had two senior studs and three junior stallions, but about 40 mares. And every mare was a jewel. She was proud of her studs but loved her mares. Said studs were nothing w/o those mares’ hard work.
So I was raised with a bias for mares. RL mares. But I know the division of mare people to gelding/stallion people is lopsided; most horse people seem to prefer geldings. My question was more asking if the game considered stallions more important or a bigger influence than mares. If so, I would focus any dollar bucks I spent on them. -
MackZ, Thank you! Good info. And supports the link annismyrph provided.
This is all really helpful. Thank you!Thanked by 1MackZ -
you ll find you get more colts than fillies.. I ve found almost a 60/40 ratio from my 100 acre pasture... sooooo in game you usually end up with more geldings than spayed mares.. . In game Mares get a pasture "bonus" they pass on to their foals.. its best if you can to l eave your breeding mares in pasture for as long as possible.. Stallions dont get the bpnus so you can pull them to keep showing them.Thanked by 1Chiere
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I'm not sure there is a game bias in favour of colts. I think it is 50/50 but our perceptions often make it seem like there is inequality, simply because you get a run of one or the other. Ammit can probably confirm or deny how the ratio works.Thanked by 1Chiere
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There is not one. :) Breeding advice does not even know the gender of the foal when testing.Post edited by Ammit at 2024-12-30 05:55:17Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/herThanked by 1Chiere